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Help! Where to Stop? 1951 Dodge P/U Restoration


Julie

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I’ve been reading along until now as I really had nothing of value to contribute.    It now seems like you have arrived at the point where it becomes an interpretation of an oral contract partially supported by emails.
 

in my mind the question is one of agreed scope.  Was the intent to restore or modify?    If you specified a running driving stock truck he really varied from the spec.   Are there any early communications that deal with restore vs mods?   If so a court might see that in your favor.  

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On 7/29/2021 at 12:31 PM, wagoneer said:

 

We are now all in your superficially invested in your tragedy,

 

What a poetic way to put it!!

 

so any description of the state or work done would be helpful for perspective on work .

 

Okay. See the pics as of April of this year. Last I have.

 

Also knowledge about whether the original engine/transmission are still around, as that could be a possible route forward.

 

 

 

  

 

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Edited by Julie
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8 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

hmmmm ROADTRIP?

Yes, you are my hero! I was going to say I don't think you are all that far, isn't Oak Grove MN near Eau Claire WI? Hop, skip and a jump. 

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Some of the posse of this forum ....48dodger, ggdad, Merle, Ed, Jerimiah, Todd and others.....CA, WI, MN....yes, we meet up sometimes. 

 

48D

 

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Edited by 48Dodger
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18 minutes ago, 48Dodger said:

Some of the posse of this forum ....48dodger, ggdad, Merle, Ed, Jerimiah, Todd and others.....CA, WI, MN....yes, we meet up sometimes. 

 

48D

 

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Lol, half of Jeremiah again! So funny.... I have a few photos of his other arm.... we should crop them all together sometime  

 

but seriously..... you are my hero too Ggdad1951 ?

 ?

Edited by Brent B3B
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1 minute ago, Brent B3B said:

Ha! I think a posse of this size and sheer brute force requires a wide angle lens.

 

Lol, half of Jeremiah again! So funny.... I have a few photos of his other arm.... we should crop them all tough sometime  

 

 

 ?

 

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5 hours ago, Julie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

A couple of interesting things here from these photos from April (3 months ago). This has turned into a complete restomod rather than just enhancement. The owner should have appropriately informed you, or rather given you appropriate estimates and expectations. 

 

It's looks to be only about 1/3 complete (that's I guess the 20k out of my estimated 60k full restomod), unfortunately, though possibly the fitting of the engine and trans was majority of the work, there is quite a bit of work to be done but not impossible, and you would have a very nice truck afterwards, except @Frank Elder may never talk to you though he might join the posse forming (he gets a bit annoyed at putting "cheby"  engines in Mopars). 

 

This mechanic definitely is not the only one who could do the work, but it would take someone who has done complete end to end builds before to do it efficiently.

 

You don't have to take them to court, but you have to sound convincing and assertive so he takes it seriously. 

 

In the end, the work looks quality-ish so far*, but the expectations on what you want vs what he thinks you want or knows how to do are totally off. He's way down the road of restomod, and going back now is pretty much gone. 

 

There are folks on this forum who have done similar and could give better estimates. My original numbers above presumed back to original with few mods. This is like an episode of Texas Metal; just be careful it doesn't come out lowered 12 inches.

 

On the positive side, now that the running gear is "modern", then most any mechanic would know how to work on it, and hook everything up, so your options are greater. Instead of looking for a restoration shop (though they are still good), you can tell them you have a truck that half-way through a Chevy 350 restomod, but needs to be "finished". 

 

 

 

Summary:

 

Given the state of the truck, you are likely $20k away from a good daily driver truck.

    a) You could sell this one for probably $7k in its current state (parts alone), and let someone else finish it. 

         You could buy something (or nothing) else.

    b) You could Finish it yourself in your spare time

    c) Have this guy bring it to some state like running

    d) have another shop do the work that you trust and can supervise.

 

A good shop that focuses on it could knock it out in a couple of weeks, but rest assured you are in the middle of a complete restoration.

 

If that's not what you bargained for, or negotiated, then you may seriously consider suing, but lots of other custom shops can finish this truck for you. You can also take your pick of personalities on Motor trend network; I'd go with Stacey David though I think Garage Squad would be more appropriate here.  ?

 

 

 

Observations:

 

 

1. He's got a 1950 or so Chevy truck behind this one; I think He's turning your Dodge into that one.
     more interesting and relevant:

 

2. The engine is in place and mounted, and presumably so is the transmission. It looks like this GM 350  just by looks but they all kind of look the same 

 

    *Is my imagination, or is that engine and cab sitting too far back? That front cross member should be underneath the engine

 

3. Front suspension and steering changed completely -- rack-and-pinion now. No steering wheel shaft so steering not yet connected.

 

4. Not clear from these pictures what's going on with the drive shaft or the rear end, but the rear wheel hubs are the same as the front wheel hubs, so I think the rear axle was also changed out. Did he mention 4-wheel disc brakes?

 

5. Not seeing a lot of wiring - so on the todo list

 

6. whole front end fascia needs to be put back together and wired up. 

 

7. rear truck bed and wiring needs to be put back together

 

8. Not seeing any brake lines - need master cylinder probably too

 

9. not seeing any fuel lines - probably never fired up

 

10. Need exhaust, cat, muffler

 

11. A/C needs to be connected as well as heat

 

12. Linkage for transmission

 

13. Interior - totally needs doing - that's quite a bit of work (what happened to the old one?)

 

14. Did I mention wiring, lights, etc?

 

15. Giving away/getting rid of a complete engine/trans/steering/diffs for the truck is a shame. That alone would be worth at least $1000 sold to many of us on this forum.

 

16. No Carburetor - need to buy one

 

 17. No radiator/cooling system

 

 

Questions to get current status on and expected work in regards to:

  For each, what has been done, what remains

 

    

    aa) What's the minimal work required for the vehicle to move/stop under its own power

     a)  Wiring:

        sub-a) 6v to 12v conversion  

     b) Fuel system

     c) Brakes

     d) Front suspension

     e) Rear Suspension

     f) Rear Differential/Axle 

     g) Engine 

       sub-g) Engine management, fuel injection
               2) Is the engine placed appropriately to keep proportions? 

     h) Transmission, Transmission linkage

     I) Drive shaft

     J) Front Fascia

     K) Interior seats, dash

     L) Steering

    M) Fuel system

     N) A/C

     O) Heating

     P) Bed/Running Boards

     Q) Doors/Windows/Windshield wipers

     R) Cooling system 

     S) Overall Look - The truck should look original with original proportions

 

    bb) What the heck took 3 years? Would love a timeline of this work.

 

It's like anything, can you come to amicable terms with this person, or is it better to break up, because you are in a broken relationship with this mechanic.

 

I listed about 20 items (incomplete list), consider (generously) if each item took 1 day for one  skilled mechanic, then a build would take approximately one month in total, and each day costs  $560 labor/day + ~$500 in parts (that's a generous underestimate), then remaining build is approximately $21k. 

 

Yeah... that's why they call it a "passion".

    

    

 

Edited by wagoneer
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You have done exponentially more work in this email to pull this project together than this dude has done in 3 1/2 years. So thank you for that. He has pretty much washed his hands of this, although when I pressed him for any ballpark figure just to get it up and running again (no interior or body) so I could take it somewhere else he came up with about 28K for labor alone.

 

I have no idea why the interior was ripped up BTW. I just assumed to make things easier for him to work on. I never even okayed painting the interior, said I wanted a quote from the body shop first. 

 

He's also become incredibly condescending and sarcastic in these days since I told him I did not wish to continue to pay him so yes, we are done. So much so that it's hard for me to tell asking even the most basic question to try to coordinate transfer out of there. I can't tell if he is giving me an actual answer or just insulting me and my "car club pals," which would be you. Even when I produced multiple text messages over the years in our discussion around budget limiting him to $20K or so (plus another $4 he wants for the A/C) (to which he'd say things like, "sounds good" and/or "we'll sure try"), he now denies ever having said those things. So like I say, maybe somebody got a hold of his phone and I was actually talking to somebody else. Could happen.

 

At the end of the day, maybe people just hear what they want to hear and somewhere along the way he decided this was what he was doing and I was just somebody in the background he could bill from time to time when he felt like doing it. I never knew that was a Chevy engine by the way and I would have never okayed that. One thing I repeated over and over, I do not want a Frankentruck. But again, he clearly tuned me out presumably as just some girl with a checkbook long ago. 

 

To whit, check out a Facebook post he himself made in September 2018. Paint and interior -- a cosmetic upgrade -- were my priorities from the get-go and he seems to be parroting that back, then tossing in his big idea to stick in a whole new engine as an afterthought. And then he just kept running with it. That's my interpretation anyway.

 

The biggest red flag has been that he has declined to have any request from me to discuss budget and schedule since I moved away in Aug. 19 , usually he's just busy or he forgot or we'll talk soon. He would send another bill at some point, but he never returned a single call. Not once.

 

He has sent the second of two separate bills inside of the last three weeks, totaling $4056 for labor, mostly. Fabrication, he said. Really good word for it.

 

Given the state of the truck, you are likely $20k away from a good daily driver truck. 

    a) You could sell this one for probably $7k in its current state (parts alone), and let someone else finish it. 

         You could buy something (or nothing) else.

    b) You could Finish it yourself in your spare time

    c) Have this guy bring it to some state like running

    d) have another shop do the work that you trust and can supervise.

 

I am not sure I will ever trust anyone again. A seems the best option, although I don't really know how to orchestrate this. He told me in our last exchange to let him know who wanted to pick up the parts so he can run around the shop and get them together (paraphrasing). $7k is ironically the price I bought the truck for. The saddest thing is it ran and drove just fine at the time.

 

 

The two things I ever asked for were safety and pretty. He told me recently I also said I wanted to drive at high speed so I could go to "Wisconsin Dells." I would not go to Wisconsin Dells if I were under fire, so he must be thinking about someone else.

 

 You could buy something (or nothing) else.

 

Yes. I will buy a Dodge.

 

Thanks, posse.

 

 

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Edited by Julie
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8 hours ago, Julie said:

Yes, you are my hero! I was going to say I don't think you are all that far, isn't Oak Grove MN near Eau Claire WI? Hop, skip and a jump. 

 Young Ed and I could make Cottage Grove MINNESOTA in about 30 mins....Cottage Grove WisconSIN.....likley a few more hours (about 4).  But I'm always up for a good road trip!  :P

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14 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

 Young Ed and I could make Cottage Grove MINNESOTA in about 30 mins....Cottage Grove WisconSIN.....likley a few more hours (about 4).  But I'm always up for a good road trip!  :P

Wait, there are two Cottage Groves? What are the odds?!

Road trip!!!

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7 hours ago, Julie said:

 

 

At the end of the day, maybe people just hear what they want to hear and somewhere along the way he decided this was what he was doing and I was just somebody in the background he could bill from time to time when he felt like doing it. (Case in point, how freaking irresponsible to throw away those original  parts? In his defense, he did ask me what I wanted to do with them and I was just like, well, will I possibly need them at some point? His answer, nope. And that was that). I never knew that was a Chevy engine by the way and I would have never okayed that. One thing I repeated over and over, I do not want a Frankentruck. But again, he clearly tuned me out presumably as just some girl with a checkbook long ago. 

 

To whit, check out a Facebook post he himself made in September 2018. Paint and interior -- a cosmetic upgrade -- were my priorities from the get-go and he seems to be parroting that back, then tossing in his big idea to stick in a whole new engine as an afterthought. And then he just kept running with it. That's my interpretation anyway.

 

The biggest red flag has been that he has declined to have any request from me to discuss budget and schedule since I moved away in Aug. 19 , usually he's just busy or he forgot or we'll talk soon. He would send another bill at some point, but he never returned a single call. Not once.

 

He has sent the second of two separate bills inside of the last three weeks, totaling $4056 for labor, mostly. Fabrication, he said. Really good word for it.

 

Given the state of the truck, you are likely $20k away from a good daily driver truck. 

    a) You could sell this one for probably $7k in its current state (parts alone), and let someone else finish it. 

         You could buy something (or nothing) else.

    b) You could Finish it yourself in your spare time

    c) Have this guy bring it to some state like running

    d) have another shop do the work that you trust and can supervise.

 

I am not sure I will ever trust anyone again. A seems the best option, although I don't really know how to orchestrate this. He told me in our last exchange to let him know who wanted to pick up the parts so he can run around the shop and get them together (paraphrasing). $7k is ironically the price I bought the truck for. The saddest thing is it ran and drove just fine at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your truck in 2017 was amazing, and a stage that many on this forum (including me) aspire their own trucks to be already. It's a really solid truck, and has all the parts, but suffered from the usual deficiencies that require a little bit of updating including:   A/C, highway drivability, engine maintenance, brakes, and maybe a nice wax.

 

The solutions this mechanic chose are the "easy" way out - rip and replace , instead of refine and hone, and unfortunately those nuances are not readily there unless you are steeped in the options available and a strong vision being followed.

 

To be fair, the engine/drive train restomod will achieve the goals above, and get you a very very nice daily driver truck.

 

A really experienced mechanic could at this point really give you an accurate estimate of parts and labor because there is no mystery any more to the mechanicals, and (presumably) the rest of the body is still there. As a truck, it's quite a simple vehicle with not a lot of parts or detail work, so to speak, unlike the sedans. 

 

 

I refer you to this page on Wisconsin consumer protection laws:

 

Be careful now in what you say to him, and do not ignore the bills, as they are protected under Wisconsin Law. IANAL (I am not a lawyer), but basically your rights are protected for authorized repairs, and your best task is to carefully document *everything* from the beginning.  The trick is distinguishing authorized from *unauthorized*, and any estimates provided or not provided along the way along with itemized invoices (including part prices and labor).

 

 He is required by law to keep parts for your inspection/retrieval, and my mechanic always keeps them for me until *after* I pick up the vehicle in case I want them. 

 

Any kind of expert tends to wash over the details for the customer by necessity, but that is normalized through the estimates and approval process.

 

 

I have been in your position before too, surprised by a bill by a mechanic on my vintage Chrysler, and it's not a good spot because you know work is done, and you wonder why it wasn't communicated or did you ask for more,  or you just don't want to create conflict. It sucks.

 

I'm not sure this was ever really a "trust" relationship, it's a business one with ill-defined parameters. It frequently comes about from being too palsy and loose with the mechanic: "Oh could you just do this, or 'how about this one little other thing'". It's easy to become "pseudo-friends" when the work is long and drawn out, but really you want the work to be more like when you take the car to the reputable factory dealer for repairs - very mechanical and procedural.  It happened to me especially in the beginning when I was more nostalgic and less informed about what is required to do the work and I needed to trust the mechanic to do the job for the goal I was asking. 

 

This unfortunately needed a proper oversight and project management like your house restorations which really is the mechanic shop's responsibility. It especially becomes problematic when you have something so open-ended as "safety and pretty", because that is open to interpretation, and really the onus on the repair shop owner is to really nail down what it is you would like done at the detail level. This is similar to any type of project whether automotive, residential, or building software.

 

As one example: 

     Would it have been sufficient to just check all the drum brakes, replace master cylinder, and move forward, or was it necessary replace front drums with disc brake kits (ala scarecrow kit), or a third option is to replace the whole front end (which they did here) giving you stopping power, easy steering, modern radial tires.    Slippery slope especially when customer is uncertain at the technical level and depends on the service person to make the technical judgment call. Your check-and-balance is the estimate plus progressive invoices and milestones. 

 

That decision point should have been made with your consultation and appropriate cost estimation, and if it looks like it's going to run over the estimate, advisement well in advance Basic project management and part of the accounting the shop should have been doing regardless.

 

You see this happen on those TV Show builds quite a bit -- person drops off their car with shop, and 6 months or years later, the car comes back bling bling with an equally bling bill. They almost never show the billing conversation, but I have seen that they do keep the owner apprised and send periodic bills.

 

 

What has happened is NOT water under the bridge, but now must be dealt moving forward. 

 

Sentimentally, this would be amazing to finish, but is it a $55,000 truck? No, and you will never get $55k out of it. For that additional $28k, you could get a completely restored most anything you want kind of vehicle with fresh paint, and the reality is that the money you put into these vehicles almost never pays out in market value (see labor estimates as an example). 

 

Frankly the next owner will get a steal-of-a-deal from your truck because it's mostly there, but takes some skill and knowledge to finish it off. If they have it themselves, then for another $5 to $10k in parts, they will have a sweet truck. 

 

This is why you see some/most builds go on for years here on the forum. We are doing it on the side, when we can, bit-by-bit.

 

 

If you really are keen to finish it, call up custom shops in your area, and explain the situation and show the pictures (or rather go to the shop). You basically want to get it back to original running order from 2017 but with this new power train. Maybe for another $15k it would be worth it considering in the market a fully restored restomod goes for about $35k. 

 

They will tell you they can't give you an estimate without looking it over, but still they should have an idea. Heck, I have only seen low res pictures, but they should have some clue.

 

$20k is probably not unfair for the work done so far, it's just not the $20k worth you were expecting (or maybe even agreed to).

 

This current shop could do you a solid by telling you what has and hasn't been done from the list plus anything else.

 

 

I hope this info helps you forward making a decision and action.

Edited by wagoneer
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10 hours ago, wagoneer said:

I hope this info helps you forward making a decision and action.

Yes it does about the decision to walk away. The action on where to go and what to bring with me to take where feels a little overwhelming. 

 

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Edited by Julie
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I could be mistaken but it looks to me like body is lowered on chassis as well. Engine is definitely too far back in my opinion, as well as cab. 
 

going in with a 20 grand cap is reasonable. What this guy is doing is building HIS truck with YOUR money. Go way deep, in hope owner bails.  
after reading all this,thats how i see it. 
 

i dont make a move without permission. 

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1 hour ago, Tooljunkie said:

I could be mistaken but it looks to me like body is lowered on chassis as well.

Your take here is quite intriguing and probably accurate as I definitively told him I did NOT want the body lowered as he has done with his own builds. He also asked if I wanted it built without a hood so I could show off the engine. I was like what? Hell no. Again, his style. Uneffinbelievable.

 

Engine is definitely too far back in my opinion, as well as cab. 
 

going in with a 20 grand cap is reasonable. What this guy is doing is building HIS truck with YOUR money. Go way deep, in hope owner bails.  
after reading all this,thats how i see it. 

 

i dont make a move without permission. 

 

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18 hours ago, 48Dodger said:

Some of the posse of this forum ....48dodger, ggdad, Merle, Ed, Jerimiah, Todd and others.....CA, WI, MN....yes, we meet up sometimes. 

 

48D

 

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I know I'm not considered part of the "Posse" in any photos.  Side note though, CO isn't a bad stopping point between CA, WI, and MN......

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2 minutes ago, CO54 said:

I know I'm not considered part of the "Posse" in any photos.  Side note though, CO isn't a bad stopping point between CA, WI, and MN......

LOL. It's a great stopping point! I stopped there in Fall 2019 when I moved to L.A. from WI with a stuffed rabbit riding shotgun. My friend lives in Denver and has a young kid who got a ton of presents that were overcrowding my little car. Would have been nice to own a frikkin truck!!

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I lived in Denver for 20 years in the late 90's, looking back I didn't care for Denver as much as Colorado Springs.  COS was a small town feel when I moved here 17 years ago, but has continued to grow from all the Military bases expanding.

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23 hours ago, kencombs said:

in my mind the question is one of agreed scope.  Was the intent to restore or modify?    If you specified a running driving stock truck he really varied from the spec.   Are there any early communications that deal with restore vs mods?   If so a court might see that in your favor.  

 

The only word I have ever used with him is "restore." I never heard the word "modify" until I came on this board. I definitely never asked for a "running driving stock truck," cuz that's a new one too. My ask from day one, and repeatedly, over and over, written and verbal, was what can we get done for around $20K? His response: basically everything, just send me another check. You saw his FB post saying it had become an "almost" full build, with new paint (which I wanted), interior (me) and possibly a new engine (him, according to him, at least by implication, if it could be fit within the scope. And then he proceeded to cut to the new engine and leave most everything I'd prioritized for after body work it never really needed IMO and then turned out to be way out of any scope I ever had in mind. I was good with the brakes (safety) completely confused about the transmission but okay, and very recently agreed to $4K for A/C, which isn't even done.

 

I will dig up some early e-mails just for sport. Here are couple dated text messages too, redacted. (Only Merle knows the guy's name from our PMs, so if you'e dying to know you will have to squeeze it out of him). :-;

 

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11 hours ago, wagoneer said:

 

If you really are keen to finish it, call up custom shops in your area, and explain the situation and show the pictures (or rather go to the shop). You basically want to get it back to original running order from 2017 but with this new power train. Maybe for another $15k it would be worth it considering in the market a fully restored restomod goes for about $35k. 

 

They will tell you they can't give you an estimate without looking it over, but still they should have an idea. Heck, I have only seen low res pictures, but they should have some clue.

 

$20k is probably not unfair for the work done so far, it's just not the $20k worth you were expecting (or maybe even agreed to).

 

This current shop could do you a solid by telling you what has and hasn't been done from the list plus anything else.

 

 

I hope this info helps you forward making a decision and action.

 

All billing is settled and he has been instructed to discontinue further work on the truck. I talked to the insurance company about making a claim for a total loss, which is a possibility only if it has completely disappeared (which is not out of the realm of the possible, I suppose). I have not had any pics since April, but I have had $8K in billings mostly for "fabrication" I clearly never wanted or needed. The adjustor told me during Covid they are getting all kinds of claims like this, including one for a $200K classic Ferrari some guy sold off part by part while billing the guy for repairs he never did. He did not even get arrested, it was a civil matter and they were able to settle a claim based only on the loss of the original parts. 

 

Anyway, I just found out this dude's wife filed for divorce (and child support) about a month ago. It really makes sense how hard up for cash he is because that's just around the time he contacted me and asked why I hadn't paid an invoice e-mailed just hours earlier. I was on vacation at the time and was like, um, I'll get to it next week. I actually thought for a second there had been a fire or something but did not follow my intuition that something was terribly wrong.

 

And again, his response to my telling him whatever happens, he will not be finishing the job was to send me a second bill (for labor only) inside of a 3-week span. 

 

Last word from him:

If you have someone that complete your truck to the point that is it up and running for 40 hours, have them come get it. 
They obviously do not know what they are talking about (no disrespect is meant by that), but there is no way possible it can be done, unless they have 10 guys on it non-stop.
 
Just the wiring takes 30+ hours. And we still need to finish the suspension, steering, brake lines, fuel lines, install a fuel tank,  install gauges, install A/C unit and build A/C lines, mount the radiator, build transmission cooler lines, etc.......  I could go on and on.
I have no issues with you having someone stop by to see the project.
Whoever can finish it for the 40 hours is your best bet. 
Please let me know when they are coming to get it so i can get all the parts rounded up and in one spot.

 

You advice does help but I affirmatively do not want to continue with this project. I am just trying to figure out how to execute selling the parts he apparently has scattered around his property. At this point I want anybody but him to have them and it seems like I will have to pay someone something to even make that happen (which is ok) but I actually don't know how to proceed.

 

He will not be doing me a solid, or anything else.

 

 

 
 
Edited by Julie
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Reading this thread,I feel rather sad that what you had as a vision for your truck when you purchased it has turned sour. As with many members on this forum, I've been into old cars for many years - seen a lot, have some experience - years ago, I personally paid a " learning tax" cost me $150.

Edited by T120
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2 minutes ago, T120 said:

 

Reading this thread,I feel rather sad that what you had as the vision you had for your truck when you purchased it has turned sour. As with many members on this forum, I've been into old cars for many years - seen a lot, have some experience - years ago, I personally paid a " learning tax" cost me $150.

Thank you Ralph, I appreciate that. I've known for awhile I would be paying more than I wanted to, but never in a million years did I imagine it would be in exchange for nothing. I bought it with a small inheritance from my sister. Wherever she is, I bet she is sad too.

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