Can't get no spark-isfaction

[Purple Moo Cow]

@desoto1939 well I finally got a chance to get back out there tonight after the kids went to bed and my wife turned on the bachelor. Apparently one of the wires inside the dizzy lost its insulation, I replaced both of them just to be careful and put in new points and rotor but still nothing. I did decide to pull the dizzy and I did not find this rubber plug but I could just be going dumb here. Took some pics in case you all see something I missed. Currently leaning towards the missing rubber plug as my problem.

 

I don't think anything is rubbing or grounding inside the dizzy. Also, what is that little flap...hole...thing in the last photo? Some type of additional vacuum hook up?

[allbizz49]

That last picture is an oil cup for lubing it. What's your point gap set at, looks huge.

Edited July 27, 2021 by allbizz49

[Sniper]

8 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

What's your point gap set at, looks huge.

That's what I thought

[Purple Moo Cow]

@allbizz49 @Sniper I set it at .020, might have moved though when I was pulling it out n what not. I had the feeler gauge in between when I tightened it and ensured slight resistance after tightening the screw. 

[Sniper]

I guess the question, for now, is do the points closed ( they do close, right?) and do you measure continuity between the coil lead and the distributor body?

[9 foot box]

   The points tension and contact spring should be under the condenser lead connection. Get more clearance between the condenser and cam. Adjust points on the high points of the cam, not the flat part. Lighter weight wire, without insulated terminals flex’s better for a vacuum advance to work easier. There is a bearing under the points plate that also needs to be checked  and lubed for free movement. 

[wagoneer]

That fifth picture - where your ignition positive wire screws to the body - that is the where the rubber plug @desoto1939 is referring to, and it seems there.

 

Since you have the dizzy out, get a couple of sets of jumper cables, your coil, a battery, a spark plug, and preferably an $8 inline spark plug tester (autozone) and bench test your whole setup.

 

that way you will know whether it’s your distributor or something else. You can also set the dwell and test your vacuum advance if you like.

 

I noticed someone re-wired  your distributor, and that may cause you problems with vacuum advance if those wires or connectors are not flexible enough to allow the top breaker plate to move.

 

Bench testing it allows you to run connectivity tests all around without hunching over your car. I setup a few sawhorses and some wood boards next to my car and tested it on the spot (a screw at near the edge makes for a handy hook to hang the dizzy on).

Edited July 27, 2021 by wagoneer

[desoto1939]

I agree with sniper when I saw the gap on the points way to big again set the gap when the  cam in on the high spot or a point on the cam rotor. recheck your setting. I would also set it at 19 or 18 becasue of wear see if that helps. If at 18 and that works then maybe move to 19. at a smaller rate points might wear faster but if you are getting spark then you can make finer adjustments.

 

Also look for the smaller autolite internal wires.

 

rich Hartung

[desoto1939]

can you clean up the plate on the dizzy body and list the number on the dizzy such as IGS-4102x  or IGT-xxxxx.  This is important to know and i can tell you the proper internal wire number to get to replace the home made wires and also the correct internal parts such as breaker plate, cap rot condensor and points.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[kencombs]

17 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

can you clean up the plate on the dizzy body and list the number on the dizzy such as IGS-4102x  or IGT-xxxxx.  This is important to know and i can tell you the proper internal wire number to get to replace the home made wires and also the correct internal parts such as breaker plate, cap rot condensor and points.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask.

wire is made in several types even with the same gauge.  Lots of small wires, smaller number of larger individual strands totaling the gauge number. the former is much more flexible and works better for things like the distributor internals, or connections from body to door that flex frequently.  

I've found marine wiring that has the desired construction, and the strands are tinned for corrosion protection.  But only available in large lots and expensive.

Finally, here is the question;  Anybody know of a source for such wire in smaller quantities for use in making your own replacements? 

 

My Chrysler mini van with power sliding doors suffers from the too stiff wire problem.  They made a poor choice of materials and as a result the wires break in use.   When aftermarket companies reproduce the door wiring harness, you know there was an engineering mistake, or more likely an accountant mistake.

[Sniper]

These guys have smaller length spools of marine grade wire for reasonable prices.

 

https://www.marineengineparts.com/electrical/marine-grade-wire-connectors/single-conductor-wire

[Purple Moo Cow]

@desoto1939 I will do my best to clean that plate up to better recognize the numbers. I read in another thread on the forum you telling someone about the variety of distributors available for the vehicles over the years and the potential issue in not ordering specific to your distributor. Also as you and @Sniper mention I did not actually think of the height of the cam at the time I set the points, very possible that I set the points at the wrong height causing them to actually be much larger than they should be, correct?

 

@wagoneer I intend to do just that, setup the things and bench test everything since I already pulled out my distributor and that's the most invasive thing to remove. Can't remember who posted the video of their setup earlier in the thread but I'm hoping to pretty much follow the same thing minus the dwell meter and then I can clarify if the issue is specific to the distributor. 

 

@9 foot box Thanks for the specific notes of how to improve the re-wiring. @wagoneer I re-wired it so as to not have to rely on whatever the PO might have done, but will be pulling it apart more in depth either before or after I bench test it.

 

As always, thank you all for the helpful information. I know things get asked multiple times across these forums and everyone says use the search. I try my best to read around for info before I ask questions, but the search function seems to have mediocre scripting at best.

[Merle Coggins]

14 hours ago, Purple Moo Cow said:

@allbizz49 @Sniper I set it at .020, might have moved though when I was pulling it out n what not. I had the feeler gauge in between when I tightened it and ensured slight resistance after tightening the screw. 

 

Did you set that gap with the points on the tip of the lobe, as shown in the picture, or with the points rub block down on the flat part of the cam? If you were adjusting with the points resting on the flat part that would explain the large looking gap now with it up on the lobe. If that's the case the points will never close to activate the coil. Recheck your points gap with the points rub block resting on the very tip of the cam lobe. 

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

These guys have smaller length spools of marine grade wire for reasonable prices.

 

https://www.marineengineparts.com/electrical/marine-grade-wire-connectors/single-conductor-wire

Thanks. They do have smallerspools

[DJ194950]

Why is the spring of the points (metal about 1/4 wide) not under the screw with the black wire to the condenser and the yellow out to the coil connection.

 

Picture make look that way?

 

DJ

[allbizz49]

Goodveye DJ. I was so focused on that point gap, I didn't see that until you pointed it out. 

[kencombs]

It was mentioned earlier, but bears repeating.  Get you hands on a test light or multimeter and look up Kettering ignition on the web.  Once you read through the working theory the light or multimeter will make short work of locating the problem area. Without some way to determine where voltage is or is not present, everyone is just guessing.

Here is a link to a good practical guide.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=5745

Written by an electrical engineer with lots of old ignition experience, and he's an attorney too, but don't hold that against him.  His is a great basic process that has worked for lots of guys working on old tractors.

Edited July 27, 2021 by kencombs

[desoto1939]

I just looked at a NOS breaker plate for my 39 Desoto IGS-3004A and on mine the copper flat blade and the other metal blade are on the left side of the attachment point where the two small wire connect.  You have you two flat metal blades attached to the right side and not the left sie and this looks to grounding out the points also.

try rerouting these two items to the other side and then what happens.

 

Also after we get the specific info on the dizzy then would also suggest that you get a NOS breaker plate assembly so that you have one on hand the next time you need to tune up the car.

 

 

[Sniper]

Dug out my spare distributor.  Took a shot of the points gap fully open.  Took a feeler gauge to verify .020" gap.

 

 

[desoto1939]

Sniper He has the two metal spring that hook t the condensot incorretly attached according to my spare breaker pkate and your spare dizzy the copper spring and the other metal flas  contact is located to the right of the upright he has his on the left of the upright and this is causing the grounding. Look at his pictures and you will see what I am talking about.

 

Rich

desoto1939

[Sniper]

The gap looks to be way off too.  All of that stuff needs fixed or checked, as needed.  Hopefully we can help him get it running.

[Purple Moo Cow]

@Sniper @desoto1939 I appreciate all this help. I pulled my distributor apart earlier today, gave it a once over and I did move the metal spring piece from the points over to where it would touch the condenser wire and screw at the same time. But now from looking at your picture @Sniper I wonder if the wiring is still off. Also, I will say, I did try to bench test the dizzy with the ignition coil and an inline spark check tool, but got zero spark. 

 

Also, @Sniper your stuff is backwards from mine? Is that just the photo mirror image? Been a long day

[Merle Coggins]

Some distributors are reversed from others for what ever reason. Thus the need for different internal parts and the need to identify them by your distributor number. 

 

Once again, I suggest you double check/set our points gap with the rub block sitting on the peak of the cam lobe, as shown in Sniper’s picture. Your earlier picture showed the gap extremely wide. I suspect the gap was inadvertently set initially with the rub block on the flat part of the lobe, when they should be closed. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Merle Coggins

[Purple Moo Cow]

@Merle Coggins I did reset at the high point, significantly closed the gap. Did that before I bench tested it, and still had no spark. @Sniper has a wire from the screw to tighten down the points to the plate which is different from how mine looked though when I pulled it apart

[Merle Coggins]

You may need to do some continuity tests with an ohm meter. That top coiled yellow wire should be what connects to your coil. Check that it is not grounded out to the distributor case. That wire, the condenser wire, and the points conductor strap should all be connected at that screw. I believe you said you corrected the points conductor from this picture. When the points are open there should be no continuity from that terminal to the distributor case (ground) When the points are closed there should be continuity between the terminal and the case. This will confirm that the points are working. If you suspect that the condenser may be grounding things out, you can disconnect the condenser wire and retest. 

The lower yellow wire should be providing a ground between the floating points plate and the main body of the distributor. It looks like it should be good, but you can check the continuity there too.