'50 Coronet engine cracked.

[librado65]

4 hours ago, RobertKB said:

The original poster lives in Florida according to his profile so his car being a Dodge built in the US, I assume it will have the 23” engine. The Spitfire engine is the 25” engine. I don’t believe anyone has pointed out it’s not a straight forward bolt-in but will require some modification such as moving the radiator forward as well as the front engine mount. 

So no go with the 25" engine....thanks for answer

[librado65]

4 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Thank you, now if I understand it and to be crystal clear, the 25" setup will NOT work for the OP, even with mods?

 

I know in my application, 51 Cambridge and a manual three speed, the radiator (moved forward) and motor mounts need addressed at the least.  Aside from incidentals like exhaust system and possibly wiring, throttle linkages, etc. 

Yeah so no go with the that 251 engine...I was trying to find something within drivable distance to avoid shipping costs but so far that's been a negative.

I'm not a welder nor do I have any fabrication skills so if it doesn't bolt in then I'm not trying to deal with it. I learned that lesson my years ago. I want the '50 Coronet up and driving not parked and sitting there. 

 

Might just have to ship that one from the rock auto website and have it rebuilt here locally. 

 

 

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, librado65 said:

Yeah so no go with the that 251 engine...I was trying to find something within drivable distance to avoid shipping costs but so far that's been a negative.

I'm not a welder nor do I have any fabrication skills so if it doesn't bolt in then I'm not trying to deal with it. I learned that lesson my years ago. I want the '50 Coronet up and driving not parked and sitting there. 

 

Might just have to ship that one from the rock auto website and have it rebuilt here locally. 

 

 

Seems to me to be the sensible way to go,given your desires and goals.

 

IMHO,you can never go wrong keeping it simple.

[librado65]

22 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Seems to me to be the sensible way to go,given your desires and goals.

 

IMHO,you can never go wrong keeping it simple.

 

At 31 Ive finally learned the truth in that saying that goes "sometimes less is more"...well at least in my case. 

 

Btw Ive never rebuilt a engine before. How do I go about it once I get the engine? Do I just find a machine shop, tell them Im trying to do with the engine, and they handle everything from there on such as parts? What is a reasonable price I should pay to get the engine rebuilt? 

[keithb7]

So many variables on rebuilding an engine. How good do you want it to be? 
 

An engine rebuild may or may not require all the parts that I recently purchased.  Everyone here will have a different opinion. 
I’d say Figure on +/- $2500 USD for parts

 

gasket & seal kit, complete

pistons & pins
Piston rings

exhaust valves

intake valves

valve guides

valve keepers

timing chain & both gears

all main bearings

all rod bearings

piston pin bushings

camshaft bushings

new oil pump

new water pump

new water distribution tube 

new spark plugs

New head bolts

All new block expansion plugs

 

possible:

all new tappets

new camshaft

plug wires

coil

new valve springs

 

Figure +/- $1500 USD for machining work. Again, pending what is needed. 
 

hot tank and crack check block. If it gets a pass:

Bore cylinders out 

mill top deck

mill head

turn main crank journals down

turn rod crank journals  down

Re-cut valve seats

check con-rods for straightness

install the new cam bearings

install the new valve guides

align bore main caps. Rarely needed. 
lap-in new valves
 

Want them to do all the work? You just drop off an engine core? Add $1500 to $2K for labor. 

 

More Options:

rebuild carb

rebuild fuel pump

rebuild generator 

rebuild starter

rebuild distributor 

flush radiator

how’s the clutch and motor mounts?

 

It adds up…Fast. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by keithb7

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, librado65 said:

 

At 31 Ive finally learned the truth in that saying that goes "sometimes less is more"...well at least in my case. 

 

Btw Ive never rebuilt  ing to do with the engine, and they handle everything from there on such as parts? What is a reasonable price I should pay to get the engine rebuilt? 

 

Every word Keithb wrote may well be true........,BUT you MIGHT only need rings and bearings,new gasket kit,and the valves ground.

 

It costs absolutely nothing to HOPE for the best,while being prepared to get hit with the max load.

 

This also depends on the use you want out of your car. If all you plan is an occasional trip to a local "park and show",why would you care if your car burns a little oil or the oil pressure is a little low?

 

Even if that is so,I would spring for a new oil pump,fuel pump,and water pump. Don't overlook the water pump because it is on the outside and seems so simple. Sometimes the bushing in it may be worn out,or close to worn out plus rusty,and after driving it with no problems for a few days,your water pump will suddenly take a dump,leaving you stranded and facing a rollback ride that will cost you more than a new water pump would have cost.

 

On the other hand,if your goal is road trips,you had better get everthing done that needs to be done,plus carry small parts like a spare water pump and fuel pump in the trunk,just in case. Not to mention spare belts and hoses,plugs,points,and condensor. You never know how hard this stuff might be to get if you are away from home. Consider the expense as an insurance payment.

 

 

[keithb7]

Someone said to me just the other day...It costs a whole lot more to tear it all down again because the one re-used part didn’t last as hoped. Versus replacing that questionable part when the engine was rebuilt initially.
 

Yes. Too true. 
 

An oil smoking engine can be bad for the vintage car community. Tree-huggers see it. They gripe about it. The more they see the worse off we all are. 

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Someone said to me just the other day...It costs a whole lot more to tear it all down again because the one re-used part didn’t last as hoped. Versus replacing that questionable part when the engine was rebuilt initially.
 

Yes. Too true. 
 

An oil smoking engine can be bad for the vintage car community. Tree-huggers see it. They gripe about it. The more they see the worse off we all are. 

If that pleases you,it tickles me to death.

[keithb7]

I will say it confuses me...Lol. 

 

I’m not sure what you are meaning to say.  Sorry @knuckleharley

Edited July 26, 2021 by keithb7

[kencombs]

Both approaches have merit.  I've done both and they work.  Machine and Replace everything at one extreme certainly is fool proof, but expensive and time consuming, especially at some machine shops.

 

Tear down, clean up and measure, then fix only what is needed also works.  Cheaper, faster and can provide good results.  But one must trust their measurements and judgement.  Or, use a trusted source to do the evaluation. 

 

 

[librado65]

Bummer... I thought this was going to be in the $1500 usd range. I'm still trying to find a decent engine within drivable distance to atleast see if engine runs and save on shipping costs.

 

Would it be wise to find a used and running 230 instead of rebuilding? Yes it's a gamble but if I went that route what would I need to look out for?

 

@keithb7 the part of "it adds up fast" is the part that I forget when watching your videos ?

[Sniper]

$1500 might cover all the parts for a complete job.  I have been ordering stuff for my 230 for a while now, not tracking the cost though.

 

If you want to get real crazy the Freewheeling Tony Smith has a set of modern design forged pistons and rings for the 281/230.  ~$2000.00.  A set of Carillo rods, $2500.00.  But he builds land speed record stuff and this is his top of the line, state of the art things.

 

Now on the other end of the money spectrum Vintage Power Wagons has a set of NOS pistons for $75, call for sizes available.

 

 

[RobertKB]

5 hours ago, librado65 said:

Bummer... I thought this was going to be in the $1500 usd range. I'm still trying to find a decent engine within drivable distance to atleast see if engine runs and save on shipping costs.

 

Would it be wise to find a used and running 230 instead of rebuilding? Yes it's a gamble but if I went that route what would I need to look out for?

 

@keithb7 the part of "it adds up fast" is the part that I forget when watching your videos ?

I’ve done both. Many years ago I traded a bottle of whisky for a a 251 CID that my wife’s cousin had to put in my ‘48 Dodge D25 club coupe. It came out of a three ton grain truck and was pulled because it had a miss and he wanted more power. It had a burnt intake valve in number 6 which I replaced with a used valve and lapped it and all the others. 40+ years later it is still in the car and running well without any other major work. I am sure good engines are still out there. They may be a rebuilt that a hot-rodder ? pulled and is now available to you. ?

 

With my ‘51 Dodge D39 business coupe, it had the original motor. I wanted to keep it so had a total rebuild about six years ago done by an old time machinist who had rebuilt many Mopar flatheads. He replaced nearly everything.Total cost with all new parts and the necessary machining was around CDN$4500.00, about US$3600.00.  He liked working on the old stuff and probably gave me a deal. You need to find someone you can trust. 
 

In your case, it sounds like you need to search for a good usable engine. Maybe down the road, if needed later, you could do a rebuild. It may take a while but they are out there. These are my thoughts for what they’re worth. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by RobertKB

[librado65]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

$1500 might cover all the parts for a complete job.  I have been ordering stuff for my 230 for a while now, not tracking the cost though.

 

If you want to get real crazy the Freewheeling Tony Smith has a set of modern design forged pistons and rings for the 281/230.  ~$2000.00.  A set of Carillo rods, $2500.00.  But he builds land speed record stuff and this is his top of the line, state of the art things.

 

Now on the other end of the money spectrum Vintage Power Wagons has a set of NOS pistons for $75, call for sizes available.

 

 

I planned on rebullding the original engine before it cracked...couldve shouldve wouldve...oh wells you live you learn ... luckily Im single with no wife and no kids so this is where I spend my pennies and quarters ??

[librado65]

1 hour ago, RobertKB said:

I’ve done both. Many years ago I traded a bottle of whisky for a a 251 CID that my wife’s cousin had to put in my ‘48 Dodge D25 club coupe. It came out of a three ton grain truck and was pulled because it had a miss and he wanted more power. It had a burnt intake valve in number 6 which I replaced with a used valve and lapped it and all the others. 40+ years later it is still in the car and running well without any other major work. I am sure good engines are still out there. They may be a rebuilt that a hot-rodder ? pulled and is now available to you. ?

 

With my ‘51 Dodge D39 business coupe, it had the original motor. I wanted to keep it so had a total rebuild about six years ago done by an old time machinist who had rebuilt many Mopar flatheads. He replaced nearly everything.Total cost with all new parts and the necessary machining was around CDN$4500.00, about US$3600.00.  He liked working on the old stuff and probably gave me a deal. You need to find someone you can trust. 
 

In your case, it sounds like you need to search for a good usable engine. Maybe down the road, if needed later, you could do a rebuild. It may take a while but they are out there. These are my thoughts for what their worth. 

 I really like your idea...I just got to be patient and wait for the right one to pop up. One of my older friends keeps trying to peer pressure me to throw a small block in it and call it a day...but I cant justify all the work since I like my cars low and slow ??

 

Ive always wanted to run a dual carb on these flatheads too so maybe in the future when I do a complete rebuild 

[Andydodge]

Librado..........couple of suggestions........have you tried contacting any local vintage/classic car clubs in the immediate area, also hot rod clubs.........even if you are not a member of any now could be the time to sound them out as to whether they maybe worth looking into joining.....also are there any coffee mornings, runs or similar held that you could attend to see if any similar cars may turn and give a lead to an engine........also have you made a note as to the various old wrecking yards around.....a phone call is a cheap way to start and you never know............also have you made a note as to exactly what engines and more importantly what cars they appeared in that you need and then do a regular search on ebay, craigslist and other sites.............the 23" engines which will suit your car easiest was used up to 1959 in Plymouths, and I think 1958 or 59 in Dodge so even these years maybe worth chasing..........as for the 25" long DeSoto and Chrysler versions these engine were factory installed in Plymouth & Dodge cars in Canada up till 1959 and here in Australia up until 1962 we got BOTH the 23" and 25" engines sometimes in the same year and model , the differing thing being what type of gearbox was selected......a standard 3 speed meant you got the 23" engine.........a 3speed with overdrive meant you got a 25" engine..........and if you ordered an Automatic whether it was the Powerflite or Torqueflite then you got the 25" engine at the front...........both engines fitted in the same basic hole.....the only difference seems to have been that the radiator was mounted approximately 2" further forward and small adjustments made to various linkages, exhaust pipes etc.......so a 25" engine WILL fit but does require a bit of fiddling but is not impossible tho'.............I'd strongly suggest also getting a workshop manual and reading the engine section, I installed rebuilt the 318 Poly in my 1940 Dodge in 1973.......because I had to and more importantly..wanted to.....its still going strong........don't give up.............regards from Australia.........Andy Douglas         

[Young Ed]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:39 PM, keithb7 said:

Someone said to me just the other day...It costs a whole lot more to tear it all down again because the one re-used part didn’t last as hoped. Versus replacing that questionable part when the engine was rebuilt initially.

 

The trouble with that is the modern parts aren't always better than the original stuff.

[knuckleharley]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:48 PM, keithb7 said:

I will say it confuses me...Lol. 

 

I’m not sure what you are meaning to say.  Sorry @knuckleharley

Sorry. The short version is "I don't play well with buttholes."

[librado65]

So theres a guy out in Alabama who says he has 1959 230 engine that turns over and "feels good" from his deceased fathers shop. 

 

He provided these pictures of the numbers on the engine. Can anybody confirm its a 230 with these pictures? 

[Sniper]

From this site it says "Dodge seems to have labeled all 230ci FH6s used in Dodge trucks in 1959 either M23 or M230."

 

https://t137.com/registry/help/engine/engine.htm

[Booger]

On 7/23/2021 at 4:28 PM, keithb7 said:

I'd like also to confirm if all these 25" long engines are drilled at the rear for the same bolt pattern? So in reality any bell housing for almost any flat 6 Mopar application could bolt up to the block?

Adaptor plates (various bell housings) for a basic 3 speed manual, powerflite, fluid drive, fluid torque drive trannys etc...Could all bolt up to the rear of the various bore/stroke blocks.

 

The main difference I have heard about is crankshaft rear flange. Various numbers of bolt holes and possible flange widths. Depending if you are bolting up a fluid drive or not. I have seen folks in this group have mentioned in various threads.

 

Here's how I take it....A 25" motor, 3 ⅜ or 3 7/16 bore, can be bored over quite a bit. For example a 3 ⅜ can be bored 0.060 over, then you have a stock standard bore 3 7/16 bore engine. Then a stock 3 7/16 bore can be bored yet another 0.060 over.  Is this correct?  These are big old blocks from the heyday of Detroit iron. 

 

It's very easy to find a rebuildable core. Ask the seller if you can take the head and oil pan off. Then go see it. Take a snap T gauge that covers upto  3 ½", and a digital vernier caliper.  Pick a couple of cylinders where the pistons are down. Measure the bore in the upper, middle and near the bottom of the cylinder. Side to side and front to back direction. Mark it all down on a piece of paper for each cylinder you choose to measure.  If there is a ridge at the top, measure it too. If there is no ridge, great. All the better. If there is a ridge present, it will generally tell you what the last bore was.  3 7/16 = 3.43750".  Add up from there. For example an engine that has been bored 0.030 over will measure  3.46750 at very top of the cylinder.  Look for cylinder wall scoring.  Consider how far it's been bored over already. Is there enough iron left bore out the scoring? A 0.060 over engine? Likely not.

 

Remove the oil pan. Pull a main and rod cap. Knowing what looks bad will reveal most all you need to know.  Scored crank journal bearing surfaces? Everything rusted up? Look up under bottom sides of pistons at cylinder walls. All rusted up?  Not great. 

 

I walk through these topics here: Ignore my math calculation. I had done the math on calculator with only 2 decimal places so the 3 digit rounded up. The measuring process here is the topic. How to learn more about the used engine you found.

 

 

Dude you kick butt

[librado65]

5 hours ago, Sniper said:

From this site it says "Dodge seems to have labeled all 230ci FH6s used in Dodge trucks in 1959 either M23 or M230."

 

https://t137.com/registry/help/engine/engine.htm

 

Do you know if it'll bolt up to my gyromatic transmission? 

 

Another interesting thing that's come to my attention as I'm on the search for a replacement engine. On the "flathead 6" facebook group that Ive posted up...One guy stated that Studebaker shared the same block from 1939-1954. Can anybody confirm that? Its just interesting to me

[Sniper]

I know nothing about Gyromatic transmissions, nor do I know anything about what unique, if any, engine mounting issues they may have.  Sorry. 

[kencombs]

As long as that 230 has a eight bolt crank flange it should work    And I believe it does

[kencombs]

9 hours ago, librado65 said:

 

Do you know if it'll bolt up to my gyromatic transmission? 

 

Another interesting thing that's come to my attention as I'm on the search for a replacement engine. On the "flathead 6" facebook group that Ive posted up...One guy stated that Studebaker shared the same block from 1939-1954. Can anybody confirm that? Its just interesting to me

According to my old Hollanders that is correct. Nearly as broad a range as our flatheads. They were built well into the 70s in nearly identical form for industrial use and as service replacements