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Help me understand door adjustment.


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Welding is fun, frustrating but fun.   I find that if I weld often most welds are acceptable.  If I don't weld for a few weeks, the first few are just terrible.  Loss of muscle memory I guess. 

 

I've been wanting to try mig brazing, but needing another gas bottle and expensive wire has kept me from trying out out.

It seems to be an ideal method for sheet metal or thick to thin applications like this one.

Some carmakers now specify it for body repairs in certain areas.

 

Has anyone here tried it?

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Los,

Thanks for the pictures of the welding, explains a lot . I see you are still getting comfortable with the weld machine and technic so more practice and it sounds like maybe PA has a good fix that will help that maybe doesn't include molten metal. 

 

 As you get better practice the the plug weld. Also when you have some thicker metal it can be easier than sheet metal welding as it is more forgiving when it comes to heat, distortion and reaction time. 

 

For something like this I would use a plug size that would allow me to start off in the center of the thicker plate and spiral out toward the thinner metal of the upright allowing more dwell on the thick plate. If You cant increase your hole size then you can also drill a drill point into the thicker plate at your starting point to increase your dwell time there before spiraling out to the thinner structure if needed. Thick plate behind thin metal for me is my friend. Thick plate next to thin plate is like a 2 step for example, a 2 count on the thick plate and 1 count on the thin plate then back to the thick plate and 2 count, repeat. JMO?

 

Things that may help while starting to learn.

  • Cleaning as others mentioned when gas welding. Mig likes clean metal.
  • Good ground to clean metal. If that arc mark in the right lower corner was where the ground was it looks like it could be part of the issue. If you are sparking at the ground your sparking in two places and not getting consistent power at the weld and likely not helping the wire feed out correctly.
  • Consistent weld gap, no high/low. You don't want to add these variables yet till you can get consistent good welds in the flat position dialed in with heat and wire speed settings
  • Adjustable weld lens shade adjusted so you can see the puddle. You can't control what you can't see clearly. I now use reading glasses also when welding but also have installed cheaters in my hood for the extra magnification in addition. I mention this because it looks like some of the tacks are centered on the joint and some look to favor one side or the other or wander so just checking  
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A truckload of great advice, looks like a decent welder,you got a good deal on it. 
i do agree with cleaning. Trying to burn through paint is worse than welding rusty metal in my opinion. I use a paint stripper disc, its the most effective tool for putting a shine on the metal. At $14 apiece im ok with that. I have tried every metod i can think of, and these just wear away instead of going dull. 

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16 hours ago, Los_Control said:

While not red or blue, I think it is a good machine. Originally $1200+ but a floor model and on sale I told the wife $700 and the check book said almost $800.

@ggdad1951 I agree with you. You can see where I started, then was burning through and I turned the heat down ... you show that in the red. And the welds got worse.

More reading and I now think what I should have done is raise the heat, not lower ... then adjust the wire speed up if still burning through.

I am just a old dumb carpenter teaching myself welding from the internet and practice. I need more practice.

When I feel comfortable I will do the patch panels on the fenders.

We all learn by doing.

 

yah, some of this is counter intuitive.....juggling 3 or 4 variables and understanding which does what kinda is hard for us non-professionals!   You'll get there.

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0614211612.jpg.1da653bba731da01e47833eae0b4ce29.jpg

 

This would be the surface area I would have to work with for a plug weld. just not a lot there without opening a large hole in the center which would weaken the door jamb imho. Or try to drill in at a angle ... maybe a slot with a cutoff wheel and weld it closed?  Can not go straight in from the side, the plate does not reach the edge.

Getting one plug weld on the side may help but probably not enough.

 

Almost impossible to get a tack weld inside on the top .... not even sure if the head of the welder will fit in and reach where it needs to be.

As far as cleaning, I might be able to get my hand with a piece of sand paper and rub it a bit, no tools will go in there.

Again 1 weld on top might be enough with 1 spot on the side but still doubtful. Be a weak attempt at best.

 

I think a real fix, I would go in from here, cut a access hole using a real thin blade, get in and weld the plate on all 4 corners, then weld the access panel back in.

I would need to get more comfortable with my welding but it will come.

The area is all covered when fenders are installed, bodywork not need be perfect.

 

I am still not convinced I need to weld the plate as long as it is bolted.

I need new rubber, felt, glass ... I have a few small holes from old mirrors to weld up ... Everything can be done with the doors on.

And if I needed to take it off, I would not hesitate because of the hinge plate ... is pretty easy to get it back in place.

 

I was worried about it at first because did not understand it ... now after looking at it from all angles, I feel I understand it. I know what I think would be the correct fix.

I just need to weigh the pro's & cons.

If it was a safety issue, absolutely cut open the access and weld it.

For the convenience of not having to use a magnet to retrieve the hinge plate and spend 5 min fussing with it ... I may never take the door off again anyways? If I did maybe once in my lifetime?

Just seems like a lot of effort for little gain, now the front fenders are back on. Specially since I am repairing a driver and not restoring.

1005201739.jpg

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@Veemoney thanks for the advise I can use all I can get  :)

 

@TooljunkieI have been using  24 or 32 grit paper with a hard plastic backing, works pretty good so far. Will grind down welds fine and be careful cleaning rust & paint as it will remove metal also.  I have a paint stripper pad for my random orbital sander ... just the wrong tool I guess, it polishes rust.

Been watching fitzee fabrications for tips on youtube. He uses a grinding disk that cuts down welds in seconds. Been wanting to order some and try them out .... cant think of the name right now.

 

@ggdad1951 you are correct counter intuitive. I have been starting off with the machines recommended settings. But after some experience. I think for sheet metal anyways, I want to start just a little hotter then suggested and try that. On thicker steel am doing ok.

Sometimes just jump in, make mistakes, laugh and learn from them, get better next time.

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while not exactly apples....they not oranges either....I did a repair where the lower hinge plate was broken from the door as this was the manner it was removed from a wrecking yard in the great white north and delivered to me.  Door panel was on the door so I did not discover this right away.....this is the manner I repaired it....maybe be a depth you wish not to delve but will show an effective repair strategy.

 

Overcoming set back - P15-D24 Forum - P15-D24.com and Pilot-house.com

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Just now, Plymouthy Adams said:

while not exactly apples....they not oranges either....I did a repair where the lower hinge plate was broken from the door as this was the manner it was removed from a wrecking yard in the great white north and delivered to me.  Door panel was on the door so I did not discover this right away.....this is the manner I repaired it....maybe be a depth you wish not to delve but will show an effective repair strategy.

 

Overcoming set back - P15-D24 Forum - P15-D24.com and Pilot-house.com

Yes SIR! thats exactly the type of repair I am talking about ... except I need to cut the cowl open.

 

Another difference, if you are going to use that door, you have no choice you have to fix it.

My case I have a choice. I can fix it or I can do nothing ... I can still use the door with no ill effects.

 

Also, if things go well. I will have it road worthy this time next year, drive it for a year, work out the bugs & or locate them. Then pull the front end back off and go through the engine. The rear main seal will dictate when I pull the engine.

So 2 years from now I will be a better welder, while waiting on parts for the engine I may just cut it open and fix it proper.

Right now I am just going to move on and leave it alone. Next time front end is off, decide then.

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I can understand your decision based on not quite up to speed with the welder...but the cowl would not have to be split...just the overlay on the a-post removed and welded back in place......this look more involved that it really is...as your metal overlay will be welded right back in place....the weld gap is the width of the zizz wheel cut for alignment and weld penetration.  Similar welds on a bear claw install I did to a 40's Dodge coupe...this is posted just to show you it is not that intimidating once you peel the face off the beast.

 

Door Latches and Window Channels for my 41 - P15-D24 Forum - P15-D24.com and Pilot-house.com

 

 

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That is a different approach that would work also and maybe a better approach.

 

My thoughts are the A pillar is structural and better off to not mess with it .... while cutting the side of the cowl open while still invasive I do not feel it is as structural.

Since I would try to just stay in the flat areas and leave the bends & corners intact. Also it would be covered by the fender when finished.

 

After proof reading what I just wrote, I think it just shows my lack of faith in my welding   :D

Welded properly it will be fine. I have no problems welding up the deck on my lawn tractor, or a new tongue on the trailer for the lawn tractor. Structural I want to steer clear for now.

Just the dang sheet metal that gets me. I am such a tight wad, I do not want to use my precious 16 & 18 gauge metal for practice   :D

I was working on the tractor last winter while in the shop and doors closed and heat on. I cut the new hood to length ... probably just fine at that length .... Just welding it back together for practice and then cut it again .... too many projects not enough time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Los

 

I’ve been off the forum for a minute- glad to see you’re making some good progress!

 

On the welding thing the biggest advance in my sheet metal welding came when I started overlapping tacks instead of overlapping drags.

 

For thicker stuff I get it clean, chamfer/bevel the joint so the weld has someplace to go and more than surface metal to bite, tack it in the corners, verify it’s in the right spot, and let her rip sometimes dragging sometimes swirling or drag/pause whatever it takes to get the penetration right and good profile. I find that ‘in position’ like welding side to side flat on a bench is easy and the settings work like they’re printed. ‘Out of position’ like vertical and overhead might need more heat and speed adjustment and a lot of practice.

 

On sheetmetal you end up fighting burn-thru and warping more than anything. Even one inch drags moved around and patiently cooled can pull and wrinkle metal and threaten to burn through. 
 

What works for me on sheetmetal is a series of hot tacks that overlap. If you lay in a nice tack then move next to it and hit it on a 45° angle the previous tack is a little thicker than the sheetmetal and is more forgiving on burn thru. It happens fast but you want to flow a little bead into the gap next to that tack and have it grab the metal on both sides, then you stop and do the next one. 
 

A thin consistent gap between sheets will show you any warping or shrinking as it cools- do like an inch then move to a different spot or wait a bit.

 

Be just as slow and careful if you grind down or dress any welds that show. Things that get hot will shrink and pull as they cool- that’s why hammer welding is so awesome it cools and flattens the welds as you go. 
 

Clear as mud? Hope I helped

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