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Help me understand door adjustment.


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I have been dreading this moment for 2 years.  The threaded plate behind the hinge dropped down.

It actually was pretty painless to use a telescoping magnet to retrieve the threaded plate & pull it back into place and a few tries with wire and changing seating positions ... was actually able to get bolt in it to hold it. Now I have ran a tap through all the threads, a die on all the bolts .. easy peasy to screw in the bolts.

If I remove the bolts the plate will drop to the bottom again.

With the door hinges installed, there is not enough room to use the magnet and pull up the plate to bolt the hinges.

Just cant get there from here!

 

The holes are round and just big enough for the 3/8" bolts to go through to lock in the hinges.

I have 2 doors & 4 hinges ... 3 threaded plates do not move, is only this one that drops.

Is actually the hinge that is oblong to allow adjustment.

 

I plan to just tack weld it in place. I was told that it needs to be loose to adjust the door ...

Before I make a mistake and weld it, which will be difficult to even reach & clean the area, will only get a few tacks on it.

Just asking if I am wrong here, The 3/8" threaded plate to screw the hinge bolts in should be welded solid?

 

Just asking for help to see if on right path, or if some secret to install doors with loose backing plates?

 

 

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What about drilling and tapping a small hole in the plate so you can hold it in place.  After tapping the hole then enlarge the hole in the sheet metal so you have some wiggle room.  If you need to adjust the door, loosen the screw.   I'm thinking a 10/24 size screw should be more than sufficient to hold it when all of the 3/8" screws have been removed.

 

Just a thought.....

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Is there zero room to reach inside of truck door posts to tape it in place?  Only worked on 3 Mopar early cars so I do not know myself.

Just a thought,

 

DJ

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Just now, bkahler said:

I'm thinking a 10/24 size screw should be more than sufficient to hold it when all of the 3/8" screws have been removed.

Yeah that could work ... but not really any different then just having the bolts holding it ... would have to remove the 10x24 to slide in the hinge and it would drop.

While you can not see the threaded 1/4" plate, it is behind the body panel & inbetween the kick panel & about 2" down ... almost impossible to get a grinder in there to clean up for welding ... same time tack welding will be a shoot & hope. Cant really see what you are doing. If lucky could get 2 good tacks on it to hold it.

If for some reason this is wrong, would actually need to cut a access panel to grind out the weld.

I just cant see how that plate moving around is beneficial to any adjustment?

 

 

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The few years I have been here, I never heard of anyone complain about this issue. I am guessing was spot welded or "brazed" from the factory & mine failed.

Only 1 out of 4 that moves and is a issue.

Unless some super secret trick I do not know about .... going to say I need to weld the plate back in to hold it in position.

 

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Could you drill a 5th hole in the center of the door jam, but not through the plate, so that you could plug weld the plate to the inner part of the hinge pocket? It may be difficult to grind, or file, the weld smooth for the hinge to sit flush, but it may be an option. 

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13 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Yeah that could work ... but not really any different then just having the bolts holding it ... would have to remove the 10x24 to slide in the hinge and it would drop.

 

 

Yep, I missed that part ?

 

I wasn't thinking about the part where you would have to remove the small screw in order to set the door in place.  Oh well.......

 

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10 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

thus I also read it as the nut plate is fixed

Thanks thats what I think also ... I tapped out all the threads on all 4 plates, 3 plates have zero movement, they must be brazed ... just this one plate failed .... Maybe call dodge and check warranty?

 

Just now, Merle Coggins said:

Could you drill a 5th hole in the center of the door jam, but not through the plate, so that you could plug weld the plate to the inner part of the hinge pocket? It may be difficult to grind, or file, the weld smooth for the hinge to sit flush, but it may be an option. 

Good idea Merle, I was thinking about that also .... to be honest I am such a lousy welder, will be a big patch of bubble gum left there, and a long row to hoe to file it smooth.

 

My thoughts right now, when it gets daylight. Going to see if I can lift the plate all the way out, clean it up good, clean the sheet metal best I can.

Then apply a layer of jb weld and install the plate tight with the bolts and let it dry, also can get 2 tack welds on top.

 

I figure the jb weld is not enough, the 2 tacks are not enough, the two fixes combined should last long enough to get the door installed.

Even if I do nothing and fight it getting the door installed with it loose ... once the bolts are started, is adjust door as normal. When tightened down the plate will not move.

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We got a swinger! .... I cheated and did nothing.  Every fix is really kinda micky mouse ... closer inspection and do not think I could get 2 tack welds on it ... I put it back together and used the magnet to pull the plate back up and get a bolt started. It took 10 or 15 tries now that I knew what was doing, easier then last time. A few choice words helped.

I can still adjust the door with no problems, only if I remove the door will I need to mess with the plate again. It's done lets get on with the day and the A-D-D sleep  :)

 

While the gap at the cab seems fine with me ... I needed to get this door adjusted so I can set the gap on the fenders next.

Nice that I cleaned and greased all the window mechanism while it was on the saw horses. All the jambs are painted ... going to call it a win!

While the door still needs work, everything can be done with it installed.

 

1 more to go.

 

 

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I have heard of this threaded plate issue but have not had to deal with it...went and looked at the cabs in the yard and what I could see was sheet metal stick welded to them plates, not much more than a tack weld, with weld quality varying among the 8 cabs.  I'm not really sure how the heavy hinges don't tear the cab pillar sheet metal, so I'm guessing that little weld makes a difference.  But I'm just standing beside the truck, cannot really see what was done at factory assembly from inside the cab as this is all hidden from easy view as I'm guessing that I'd need a good light and a mirror to see this are while standing on my head...might try harder to get a look see later...

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On 6/15/2021 at 3:36 PM, JBNeal said:

I have heard of this threaded plate issue but have not had to deal with it...

To be honest I am not sure is possible to see where the plate is welded to the inner structure of the cowl.

I imagine at some point the cowl was a flat piece of sheet metal .... the needed holes for the cowl were stamped out, the threaded plate was then welded on along with any other welds needed. Then the flat sheet metal was put in a press and pressed into shape?

The pillar is 2 or 3 pieces, and shaped kinda like a E where the welded plate is in one slot and the door hinge goes in the other slot, and the bolts are started from the outside and sucking all 3 together.

 

The top of the heavy 3/16 or 1/4" plate is actually a few inches down from the starting point of the sheet metal. Almost impossible to get to it.

I thought about cutting a access panel to be able to get to at least 3 sides of the plate and weld it .... not going to be easy.

I feel more then I know, The real fix would be to cut the section out of the cowl, move it to the welding table and then fix it .... then weld it back to the cowl.

That would be a real fix. Just more then what I wanted to do.

 

As far as I know, it could have been this way for 50+ years ... it was not welded when I removed the door 2 years ago.

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Here we go, as far as I got. ... I technically had 1 more day ... Monday Morning starting on the wife car and the truck needs to be moved out of the way.

No idea how long I will be working on the wife car, also am ordering parts for my daily driver truck. It will take some time ... I figure it may be  fall before I get to work on the pilothouse again.

I just did not want to park the truck on the side with doors that do not close, the fenders in the bed, not excited and maybe never get back to it.  ...I got a little progress and I am excited to get back on it now. Happy to see the front end back on. I took a few min today to install my other gauges Thanks to @Radarsonwheels :)

 

I was pretty disappointed when I installed the radiator.  First time in 2 years I was able to warm it up with coolant in it and let the engine run.

There was so much blue smoke once it warmed up, I could have drove around town and eliminated mosquitos in the whole county .... no way I could drive this truck. One step forward and 2 steps back.  :(

Amazing after a few heat cycles, it is pretty decent and very drive-able again :)  Still smokes a bit ... I do not mind a puff of smoke when taking off. This truck really just wants to go for a drive. Then see where we are with the engine.

Also first time it has run with a working 180 T-stat installed ... seems to like to idle at 195 ... extended idle. But with a fast idle it cools right back to 180 ... so seems to be ok. With no T-stat it just stayed at 160.

Oil seems to stay at 20 psi at hot idle, 45+ fast idle. Happy with that.

Am sad the temp gauge did not work with new gauges, another project.

 

 

 

 

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Being the longest day of the year, I managed to take a look at the back side of these door hinge backing plates this evening.  Long story short:  as long as the plate is held in place with the door hinge mounting bolts, it should work nicely.

 

additional information - door hinge backing plates

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9 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Being the longest day of the year, I managed to take a look at the back side of these door hinge backing plates this evening. 

Thanks for the vote of confidence & photos. I also thought they would be fine just bolting into place.

Your photos are very clear whats going on .... this prompted me to take my own photo .

 

I take the photo by sitting on the running board and reaching around with the camera ... I cant actually get my head in position to see.

There is the kick panel we see the top of, goes all the way to the floor. There is a 2" stiffener that is welded in place higher then the hinge in my case.

In your photo it was lower and could see the top of hinge?

There is 2 white spots, the one above is daylight shining through for the door stop. The lower white spot is lithium grease that squeezed out when tightening the hinge.

That is the top of the hinge.

 

So to actually weld this, again will be sitting on the running board, I am right handed, will have to use my left, will be reaching around blind just poking and feeling my way with the head of the welder .... "poke & hope" I just picture myself making a mess out of it, burning through the sheet metal 1/4" above the hinge and making it worse.

 

If it was critical and about safety, I would figure it out .... I see it as convenience and just a pia the next time I pull the door, but is not that bad to use a magnet and get it back in position.

Just was my thinking on deciding to do nothing.

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1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

, I am right handed, will have to use my left, will be reaching around blind just poking and feeling my way with the head of the welder .... "poke & hope"

Can you use a small mirror located to give you a view of the weld area from your seated position. Many a backside weld is done with mirrors especially in tube welding. Just take some practice for the orientation.  High tech would involve a video camera with an automatic weld lens. 

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Just now, Veemoney said:

 

Can you use a small mirror located to give you a view of the weld area from your seated position. Many a backside weld is done with mirrors especially in tube welding. Just take some practice for the orientation.  High tech would involve a video camera with an automatic weld lens. 

Thats fair question. Lets give a honest answer. I will show you a photo of my last welding practice. 18 gauge sitting on the bench ... I keep burning through.

I know now I keep turning down the heat because sheet metal ... what I need to do is turn up the heat and if I burn through I need to turn up my wire speed.

I am learning. I wont actually weld anything on my truck others can see. When I improve I will.

That includes the spot weld ... possible to get 1 or 2 ... how strong will they be? The weld would have to be filed off flush with the sheet metal as the hinge slides in and out for adjustment.

 

Main thing I am concerned with, what will I gain welding it? Will the hinge plate really be more stronger if welded? Or if pinched down tight with bolts will it be the same ... or almost the same?

 

Will need to evaluate that. If I get in a high speed crash with a old dodge truck (40 mph :D ) I will get ejected from the cab and truck roll over on me ... the doors will get jammed and will have the steering column pierce my head. The truck will catch on fire and I will be cremated.

I just cant think of any situation where welding that hinge plate will save a life. Just a matter of convenience.

 

I fight attention deficit disorder all the time ... why have been working on this project for 2 years now ... not restoring, just a driver for me that will never be for sale.

 

Edited by Los_Control
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forgot to add photos, just saying my welding sucks now but getting better ... and reason why I pushed the pilothouse to the side is I need to work on my wife car and then my truck. I am disabled and takes me 2 weeks to do what others do in 3 days. But I get er did ... eventually.

Will be a few months before I get to play with the pilothouse again.

 

 

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What welder are you using?  MOST MIG welders have settings listed on the door of the welder.  I use THAT as a guide to start my sample welds before getting into my real welds on the project (almost never do I use the automatic settings).  I GENERALLY go a little hotter and faster than they list, but it all depends on getting good penetration and hearing the right sizzle.

 

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you look like you have a few good welds on your picture (blue).....and some that need help (red).  Also have to think of any time you spend at the weld point.  I am by no means an expert, I still struggle at times, but I also know I've gotten WAY better thru practice and not trying to be perfect ALL the time.  CLEAN metal (no paint, soot, rust or primer) and not too HOT on the metal.  If you can't touch your piece w/o a potential burn, it's gotten too hot and you need to let it cool.  There are lots of YouTube vids to watch to help understand how your welder wants to be set and run.  Then, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

 

 

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While not red or blue, I think it is a good machine. Originally $1200+ but a floor model and on sale I told the wife $700 and the check book said almost $800.

@ggdad1951 I agree with you. You can see where I started, then was burning through and I turned the heat down ... you show that in the red. And the welds got worse.

More reading and I now think what I should have done is raise the heat, not lower ... then adjust the wire speed up if still burning through.

I am just a old dumb carpenter teaching myself welding from the internet and practice. I need more practice.

When I feel comfortable I will do the patch panels on the fenders.

We all learn by doing.

 

 

Forney MIG/Stick/TIG Multi-Process Welder 190

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Clean metal...metal ground bare and bright...proper fit up...good equipment..proper machine settings...good training and practice and gas....

makes for good wire feed welding.

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Surface preparation is something that I looked at when I gave weld certification tests as any contamination from dirt, oil, rust, paint, etc would lead to porosity and slag inclusion.  Many welders think they can skip surface prep, adjust their machine to burn through contaminants, and make their welds look good, and many times I would fail these welders on strength sample test per AWS 1.1, which led to lots and lots of commentary.  Surfaces do not need to be disinfected, but less contaminants increases the effectiveness of any weld, no matter what base material or process.

 

From your sample welds, all of them appear to be burned over paint, and this leads to some of the issues you have run into as that level of contamination will skew the machine setting needs.  Cleaning off the weld area entirely will give you a baseline to set your machine so that you can then focus more on technique; otherwise, you'll be shooting at a moving target.  Much like professional painters, the best welders I ever dealt with spent a LOT of time on setup, material prep, and practice welds, and ALL of them said heating up their machines by doing practice welds 1st before doing welds on the workpieces would drastically improve their weld quality.

 

Sheet metal welding is a process that is less forgiving than structural welding, so you're better off starting off a little cold and increasing up to the appropriate heat range.  Welding too hot will introduce the rippling or oil can effect even if your speed is fast enough to avoid burn through consumption.  From my experience, it's easier to oxy-acetyl braze sheet metal than to use MIG or stick welders, but that's just personal preference not from possible weld quality.  All 3 processes can yield effective results with proper material preparation and weld technique.

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