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Dizzi cap #1 spark plug wire 7 o'clock position?


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Issue is, you need to follow the book to install the oil pump.

You need to put the engine  on tdc, then insert the pump, then time the engine .

 

Thing is, If others have messed with the engine & not follow the book, the timing or #1 @ # 7 position may be wrong.

 

You really need to pull #1 up and check timing ....

The distributor is ran off the oil pump. The oil pump needs to be install correctly to have the .... just saying, my oil pump was installed wrong. My #1 is at 6:0clock position.

Maybe some day I will fix it. ... seems to run fine as is.

 

Just saying it is not written in stone that # 1 is at 7:00 position .... mine is at 6:00 until I change it.

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14 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Issue is, you need to follow the book to install the oil pump.

You need to put the engine  on tdc, then insert the pump, then time the engine .

 

Thing is, If others have messed with the engine & not follow the book, the timing or #1 @ # 7 position may be wrong.

 

You really need to pull #1 up and check timing ....

The distributor is ran off the oil pump. The oil pump needs to be install correctly to have the .... just saying, my oil pump was installed wrong. My #1 is at 6:0clock position.

Maybe some day I will fix it. ... seems to run fine as is.

 

Just saying it is not written in stone that # 1 is at 7:00 position .... mine is at 6:00 until I change it.

Yes, thanks very much Los_Control.I understood all your explanation.My IND 251 Chrysler timing is very good with 4 o'clock.

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13 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Just saying it is not written in stone that # 1 is at 7:00 position .... mine is at 6:00 until I change it.

Not on stone, nor on paper. Any position will work as longs as #1 cylinder fires at TDC.

 

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25 minutes ago, chrysler1941 said:

Not on stone, nor on paper. Any position will work as longs as #1 cylinder fires at TDC.

 

👏

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2 hours ago, chrysler1941 said:

Not on stone, nor on paper. Any position will work as longs as #1 cylinder fires at TDC.

 

I agree it works. I have had other cars like a old 1971 Datsoon, dizzy was a tooth off and compensated by moving the wires, I really could tell the difference in tune after correcting distributor. Ran much smoother with more power. I bought a junkyard motor & installed it, just never could get it tuned right til I corrected the distributor and moved the wires as it should be.

But this is a geared distributor & different from our old flat 6 distributor.

But the oil pump is geared, & a tooth off the rotor may not be hitting the plug wire at the most optimal time? My truck seems to run pretty good as is and does not care.

 

I tuned up a 1967 international for my Uncle, he inherited it from his brother. Same problem, tooth off on the dizzy and moved the wires ... I did not know this going into the job. I just ripped out all the wires, points condenser & replaced. That cost me some time to troubleshoot the issue and re-install the dizzy ... I was told it ran better then it ever did afterwards. I have no history with how it ran before. It was a rebuilt engine from Napa.

 

You would think I am old enough to learn from my mistakes. When I tuned up my 49 dodge, ripped out the wires and installed new with #1 at 7:00 ... Wrong!

Again it cost me time, but I learned from reading how the system works. So I would not call it a waste of time.

 

My experience with past vehicles, we can adjust the wires, then play with the timing & get it to run. I feel it is better to just correct the issue and make it right.

Yes these flatheads seem to be more forgiving in this area, I will sleep better at nights when I do correct it. That will be in the future when I am working on the motor.

As is it works fine.

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38 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I agree it works. I have had other cars like a old 1971 Datsoon, dizzy was a tooth off and compensated by moving the wires, I really could tell the difference in tune after correcting distributor. Ran much smoother with more power. I bought a junkyard motor & installed it, just never could get it tuned right til I corrected the distributor and moved the wires as it should be.

But this is a geared distributor & different from our old flat 6 distributor.

But the oil pump is geared, & a tooth off the rotor may not be hitting the plug wire at the most optimal time? My truck seems to run pretty good as is and does not care.

 

I tuned up a 1967 international for my Uncle, he inherited it from his brother. Same problem, tooth off on the dizzy and moved the wires ... I did not know this going into the job. I just ripped out all the wires, points condenser & replaced. That cost me some time to troubleshoot the issue and re-install the dizzy ... I was told it ran better then it ever did afterwards. I have no history with how it ran before. It was a rebuilt engine from Napa.

 

You would think I am old enough to learn from my mistakes. When I tuned up my 49 dodge, ripped out the wires and installed new with #1 at 7:00 ... Wrong!

Again it cost me time, but I learned from reading how the system works. So I would not call it a waste of time.

 

My experience with past vehicles, we can adjust the wires, then play with the timing & get it to run. I feel it is better to just correct the issue and make it right.

Yes these flatheads seem to be more forgiving in this area, I will sleep better at nights when I do correct it. That will be in the future when I am working on the motor.

As is it works fine.

I'm a bit puzzled by your answer. Maybe I'm not understanding you. At a point you acknowledge the position doesn't matter , but then you come back to do it correct . What do you define as do it correct ?

I have now gone through, Plymouth, DeSoto and Chrysler shop manual and there is noting about 1 0r 7. or correct way..

I don't know who came up with this. Only text I could find was this: 

 

    When installing the distributor assembly on
the engine, see that number one piston is at top
dead center on compression stroke and the distributor
rotor is in number one firing position .

 

Please share if you have MoPar documentation regrading the correct way. 

 

Edited by chrysler1941
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well, the 7:00 orientation is correct and IS in the book and while not written in stone but at some point in the future when it will not start some person going to say...hey look at this, no wonder the distributor is not positioned correctly and off they go changing things....BUT if by the book you can trust the book later when trouble shooting.  Outside of that...it makes no never mind.   But again, the book does refer to the position of 7 being correct.  Find this not in the distributor section but in the oil pump section as this is what establishes the relative position of the rotor pointing at 7  It is page 152 of my Plymouth service manual.

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The issue is the oil pump and not the distributor. We are told to put the engine on tdc before removing the oil pump.

When you do this on a un-molested motor, #1 is at 7:00 position.

When you look up on the internet #1 is at the 7:00 O'clock position .... we all know it is true if on the internet.

 

Hot Rods - Dodge 1936 Flathead Six Dist. Fireing Order | The H.A.M.B.

 

I agree with @chrysler1941 it is not in the manual that on the 6 cyl engine it is 7:00 o'clock position ... while for the V8's they do specify location for #1 on cap.

Possibly the writers of the manual, I am using 1958 21rst edition Motors manual ... not mopar. They just assume you have your oil pump installed according to instructions?

Just saying, you install the dizzy according to the oil pump. The oil pump installation is where the timing part comes into play. Would be redundant to repeat it in dizzy install?

You do it by the manual and it will be at 7:00 ... Does it matter? I do not know. I know on a gear driven dizzy, timing may only be a few degree off but on a 4cyl & a V8 it matters.

 

I figure life as hours we use to go on our journey. I would assume thinking & discussing oil pump installation for proper dizzy install is time used I can never get back.

I can set the timing at 2, 4, 6 degree ... whatever ....but is it really right if I did not set the oil pump correctly in the first place? Could be 3, 5 or 7 degree?

Just saying in the future you may find a stumble, or a miss & troubleshoot a issue & you be thinking, wheeel I did not set the oil pump like it should be ... just more wasted precious time of life .... just fix it!

 

 

 

0420211318.jpg

Edited by Los_Control
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@Plymouthy Adams Of course I don't have all the editions of manuals. I do have the  1937-42 up to P14 manual and no, nothing about 7. See attached pdf.

 

@Los_Control LOL this drawing is all wrong. My wires are not 90 degrees 🤣

Agree, oil pump at TDC as in manual, but what I meant is, if someone forgot or turned the crank, no harm is done, just make sure firing at 1 and its not wrong

Pages from 1936-1942 Plymouth Shop Manual.pdf

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23 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Just saying in the future you may find a stumble, or a miss & troubleshoot a issue & you be thinking, wheeel I did not set the oil pump like it should be ... just more wasted precious time of life .... just fix it!

No never because none of my books say anything about 7 so it will never confuse me.  What's more strange why the flipped the distributor 180 degrees in 1949/50

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Just now, chrysler1941 said:

Agree, oil pump at TDC as in manual, but what I meant is, if someone forgot or turned the crank, no harm is done, just make sure firing at 1 and its not wrong

 

And my point is ... I do not know. From the past I know moving the wires around was a get me by. Putting the dizzy in 1 tooth off, they started and ran ... but never good.

But that was with a Datsun & a international ... Now we are talking flathead 6. Mine seems to run fine, I never put a timing light on it.

I honestly do not know if it matters.

 

The Datsun my wife was driving back & forth to work, after I got home from work I would work on it .... I wasted hours of my life fixing it.

 

The international truck was the same., might have taken this old carpenter 2 hours to figure out the issue and then reset the dizzy.

Again hours of my life wasted.

 

The first start on my 1949 Dodge was over a week. Because of the #1 plug location. It really was a ordeal. I had to order new plug wires.

I rebuilt the carb ... then ordered a new one and oiled down the rebuilt & put on shelf. I replaced the plugs, cleaned the points.

Dang plug wires went to Dallas TX & sat there for 6 days ... finally they moved & delivered.

Then because I followed the #7 position  on #1 tdc. I wasted 3 or 4 more days of my life figuring out the oil pump/distributor  issue. Once I moved the wires it runs fine.

This was the first start in 20 plus years I had no idea what to expect.

 

I ended up removing the pipe plug on #6 to check for tdc on 1. Was full of carbon and used a 16 penny nail to clear it. That was really stupid  :D

I did start it up with the wife watching, the carbon bounced around in the cylinder then got caught in the exhaust valve & eventually blew out.

My wife said my truck sounded sick ...no idea if I damaged the valve or seat ....DO NOT PUNCH OUT THE CARBON! Pull the head & clean it.

I think I got lucky, time will tell.

 

I am just saying, life is a adventure. Do not waste your hours trouble shooting ignition issues when you know it is not set to factory specs.

I assume the engineers are smarter then me and knew what they wanted.

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I am not disputing the fact that it makes no difference...nor will I question your mind and ability to recall your settings...but my statement was to follow the book for the next guy along the ownership trail should it be sold.  I am merely stating the FACT that it is in the book....and my book covers through Plymouth 1954 and there is no reference to 49/50 flipped.  Agree also with you that your book source is 42 and back and even my book dated that period does not make mention of the 7 position....however it is true forward post war, to that end there is no question, just facts in print....!

 

Also let us not forget the question as asked by the OP and the posted vehicle in his profile is post war....

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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I would really like to see where it's printed. 

No future owners will have problems with my car, as 7 it's not covered in manuals related to the model.

Author has 3 projects and only one is post war 😀

 

Conclusion, all 3 grumpy old men are right. 7 o'clock position was not mentioned until 1949/50  probably to streamline diagnostic procedure as you both mention. 

 

Maybe flipped distributor is not a correct word. Rotate? Turned?  Notice vacuum chamber. See attached picture of before 49 and after. 

Why ?

Late.PNG

image_2021-04-21_065545.png

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16 hours ago, Los_Control said:

 

 

 

 

0420211318.jpg

 

that scan appears to have come straight out of a Motors repair manual as the source...it is very strange manner the fact that in the Motors manual under the Big three, Dodge, Chrysler, Desoto there is no mention of the 7 position...but if you flip to the working mans car section under Plymouth they state in my edition of MOTORS that from 1940-55 (book covers 1940-55) that to align to the 7 position also.  All this fuss is not the fact that one can do as they wish and it will run aligned other, it is the denial it is in print that seems to be the issue.  It seems to always be in the Plymouth book and not the other three.    The D24 book I have is so lacking in details and such compared to my Plymouth book for same years.  for the DT's  I post this.  Sorry but I could not get the file correct and save the rotated position....both scans clearly identified from Plymouth repair manual/section.  And clearly even if this was added a bit later in the manual, these manuals were in print long before most of us were of age to walk much less drive.  

..2011491764_Scan_20210421(2).jpg.50c038dffbacd76118305c649afc87bf.jpgScan_20210421.jpg.5a01f27ed5b72ad7ceedf32cb53e5405.jpg

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you ask for the documentation and I have provided it....doubt all you want, go into denial to your heart is content.....again the point was that IT IS IN PRINT in not one but two of the most respected repair manuals you can resource....................and while I will not deny the fact you have a book saying the moon is made of cheese, my children are long gone from the nest and those books are no longer read........😁

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2 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

you ask for the documentation and I have provided it....doubt all you want, go into denial to your heart is content.....again the point was that IT IS IN PRINT in not one but two of the most respected repair manuals you can resource....................and while I will not deny the fact you have a book saying the moon is made of cheese, my children are long gone from the nest and those books are no longer read........😁

Not denial. I only said that Chrysler Corporation's shop manuals never talked about 7 position so it's not official. If someone printed that in some other manual, that is another story. I'm sticking to official printing. They produced the cars, they know best 😊

 

Yeah mine too :)

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Ok, please stop circling the drain on this. We know documentation does/can/might exist and we also know you can do what you want on an engine and make is still work if you know what hoops have been jumped thru.  

 

Please move on.  IF this continues I will lock the thread.

 

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I found out why the changed the distributor although they don't say why the rotated it so vacuum chamber is upwards. Here is a description: 

 

      On the late type distributor
the plate and contacts do not rotate about the
cam as on the earlier type, but the timing is
changed by the plate movement to give the same
effect. The maximum advance is limited by a stop
which is a part of the vacuum chamber linkage

 

Any ideas  ?

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