R-10 rear oil seal removal angst

[Rodney_Hamon]

I have a ‘53 Plymouth overdrive in a ‘36 dodge truck that has not run for 30 some yrs on blocks and recently I drained the tranny fluid and put in Napa 80-90wt GL5. I ran the engine/tranny for a short time. Then the fluid started leaking out the rear seal soaking the emergency brake drum. Then I read about R-10’s and learned I blew it. I drained the fluid and bought Napa GL1.  The question is: I don’t have the fancy puller shown in the Plymouth service manual or the driver. And...where would I find that good rear seal?  When I crawl under the truck soon to remove the drive shaft, emergency brake drum etc, with ordinary tools how is the best way to remove that seal?  Thanks for any advice.   Ps, I did buy the Rundle book on R-10’s and I’m smarter for it. 

[DJ194950]

Same seal as used in the 3 speed trans. The update single seal # is mentioned many times on this forum as "somewhere" I have it, but someone will have it easier to find than me! And post soon?

 

The original seal type can to beyond impossible, no wonder they had special seal remover tools made by Miller and maybe others.

 

I fought one in my trans for days!  Others have reported close to the same but doable. Under a car I do not know but mine was all most impossible on the work bench- - Good luck!

 

DJ

[Dartgame]

I recall mine being very real troublesome endeavor to get out. Mine was on the bench as well. Getting the drum off is no big deal. 

 

I installed a speedy sleeve on the drum sealing surface. The old oem leather seals are very tough on metal and will wear a groove in the surface....

[Rodney_Hamon]

Thanks for replying. I knew this would give me angst. I will keep searching for bearing # and I think I will email fifthaveinternetgarage.com for additional advice. 

[DJ194950]

A I stated before-a pain without these special tools.

 

I ended up after trying all my seal remover tools (many) and destroying much of the metal parts of the old seal I Finally resorted to the dermal tool with thin diamond coated bits to almost (grind) cuts thru the layers (close) in three I think it was and then back to the seal removers and got that damn seal out! Some idiot in the past had to have put some type of glue on the edge.

 

DJ

[Loren]

The seal puller I've seen looks like a Bee Hive. (tapered thread)

You withdraw the push screw then "screw the Bee Hive" shaped part into the seal.

It gets a bite and you turn the push screw into it to withdraw the seal.

One thing I know is that modern seals are much easier to deal with (going and coming).

Your NAPA guy has charts/books that list seals by diameters so he can find you a substitute for far less money.

[Rodney_Hamon]

I am building up the courage with my almost 66 yr old body to crawl under and start removing at least the emergency brake drum.  Does anyone think I could just put GL-1 back in and see if it works against that seal?  After reading Richard Widman’s 2013 article on differences in gear oils, I wondered if the GL-5 caused my rear seal to fail. I’ve considered a seal swell additive but have nixed that idea

[Rodney_Hamon]

Taking a coffee break and letting back rest after getting this far which is ...the main nut is off now.  I can see oil weeping at the bottom of the seal and that seal is tight. It has 1/8 “ lip showing.  I’m visualizing that beehive type puller. I’m also visualizing collapsing the sucker in with a hammer/chisel and pulling it out destroyed and calling it done.  I think I will wait for any more thoughts on this before doing the nasty. Thanks for the replies as it is courage building!

[Rodney_Hamon]

Sorry. This is the correct picture of that bearing. #7599

[Dodgeb4ya]

35 minutes ago, Rodney_Hamon said:

Taking a coffee break and letting back rest after getting this far which is ...the main nut is off now.  I can see oil weeping at the bottom of the seal and that seal is tight. It has 1/8 “ lip showing.  I’m visualizing that beehive type puller. I’m also visualizing collapsing the sucker in with a hammer/chisel and pulling it out destroyed and calling it done.  I think I will wait for any more thoughts on this before doing the nasty. Thanks for the replies as it is courage building!

If you don't have a good puller collapse it from the sides carefully as much as you need to loosen it's grip in the extension housing.

Then use a sharp 1/4 to 3/8" chisel hit it from the side and angle wedge it to the rear of the housing and out.

Those 7/8" thick old style seals can be pretty tight.

Lucky me doing a job...

[keithb7]

I pulled my tranny and even on the bench tried like a bugger to pull that seal out. An assortment of tricks and tools were tried. I gave up and removed the rear tranny park brake housing. Then the seal was quickly, and easily pushed from the back side out. A Hammer and a piece of scrap wood made quick work of it. 
 

Not simple, but I’d had enough failed attempts.  Check your removed brake drum. Make sure there is no wear on it where the seal rides.  If a little wear is there, no new seal with prevent leaks. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by keithb7

[Rodney_Hamon]

and that is exactly what I did was slowly take a small chisel all the way around and work it out. A hassle but it’s done. I happen to have a “in parts” extra r-10 so I could see what that bearing was. I could carefully knock it out from the inside as you suggested. Thanks for the replies. Yes, this job is not for the feint hearted. Time for a beer. Ha

[Rodney_Hamon]

another question. When I pulled the brake drum off I noticed the main shaft is magnetized. Should I be concerned?  And thanks keithb7 for the heads up on wear. I took another look and the drum end is good. I Checked the extra drum and it had pitting on the leading end 1/8 - 3/16 of an inch. Good call. And Dodge4ya if I ever see a puller like that I will snatch it.     When I emailed and left a message at fifthaveinternetgarage they mention Randy Rundle died in Feb. Damn. Another knowledgeable person gone...like Don C.  and spinneyhill from the hamb I think and others.   I am so happy I stopped lurking all those yrs and finally joined here to tap into you guys’ vast knowledge base.  Thanks again. 

[Dartgame]

I doubt the magnetized aspect is of concern. Might have something to do with the solenoid being near by or perhaps the govenor? Not sure.

[Rodney_Hamon]

I spoke with Northwest Transmission this am and they said it shouldn’t be a problem. John, the expert with R-10’s said he has seen some shafts over the yrs magnetized but it never posed a problem. Electrical does not cause it. I ordered the rear seal from them. Less than $15.  They recommended the seal be flush when installed. I talked to George Asche as well and also didn’t think magnetic shaft mattered. He also recommended the flush install and said Northwest are good guys. George also recommended to use aviation sealant when installing. Northwest reminded me to put a little grease on the neoprene before I do it. Lastly... George likes AMSOIL 15-40 diesel oil in the R-10 instead of GL-1 that others in my readings insist on. Like Rundle.  Oh man, I’m kinda confused but I’m all ears on everyone’s opinions. 

[Rodney_Hamon]

I received the new seal and am surprised how different it has become.  No wonder it’s recommended to install flush with a tad of aviators sealant. Going to install tomorrow with a little grease on the inside lip. At least somebody still makes them. 

[James_Douglas]

On 4/5/2021 at 9:53 PM, Loren said:

The seal puller I've seen looks like a Bee Hive. (tapered thread)

You withdraw the push screw then "screw the Bee Hive" shaped part into the seal.

It gets a bite and you turn the push screw into it to withdraw the seal.

One thing I know is that modern seals are much easier to deal with (going and coming).

Your NAPA guy has charts/books that list seals by diameters so he can find you a substitute for far less money.

I have a couple of those...they sure help!

[Rodney_Hamon]

I didn’t have a large socket to tap this seal in so I slowly tapped it in with a wood block and hammer. I did apply a small amt of aviation sealant. The question is: I saw 2 little bubbles of neoprene popping out on the outer edge at 5:00 and 9:00. I carefully took a new razor blade and shaved off the 2 minor bulges (or I call them minor hernias).  Question: did I screw up or will I only know it leaks until after I install the brake drum and put fluid back in.  Yikes!  I’m thinking I better order another seal.  

[Dodgeb4ya]

It will be fine.

I've had that happen too even using the correct installation tools and sealant.

As long as the seal is driven in carefully with no distortion of the face all should be good.

 

 

 

[Rodney_Hamon]

Ahhh...thank you for that comment. I worried about that but thought common sense would prevail.  

[Rodney_Hamon]

I can’t get this emergency b. drum back onto the shaft past 1/2”. It came off nicely. I have checked the splines and everything seems clean. I am stumped. I know I shouldn’t have to tap it in. Anybody have an idea what the heck is going on?

[Jerry Roberts]

Is the drum hitting anything in the front ? Was your old seal pressed further into the trans ? Can you see anything in there that might be getting in the way by  using a flashlight ?

[Rodney_Hamon]

I guess the better question is; should that drum slide easily off and on the shaft ? I checked the splines of both repeatedly for burrs and any junk. They seem clean. I’m bummed and drinking beer, mulling over every step. That drum should be sliding right back into place after the good cleaning. 

[Rodney_Hamon]

I was typing the thought when your reply came. lol. No obstruction seen with the drop light. The drum hasn’t even passed the new seal. 

[Rodney_Hamon]

I just tested a drum sliding onto a shaft from a R-10 in parts. Looks like some hidden “burr” in one of the splines?  Damn. That drum should be easy to remove and slip back on through the new seal. Is that a correct assumption?  I guess beer on a Saturday night is alright to ease the backache.  Ha