Chrysler Industrial Engine Observations

[FarmerJon]

Looking at picking up a 251 that is semi local to me, to build into a hot rod engine for my Plymouth. 

It is stamped IND 251.

Got some questions for you guys that have industrial specific books.

Timing cover looks normal.

Did all the IND engines have sodium filled exhaust valves and rotators?

How do you tell if they have full flow oil filter capability? ( no filter is on it)

Going into a US P15, will there be problems with crank flange/flywheel/starter alignment?

Are there industrial 3 ring pistons still available? Did they all have these?

 

I am not worried about Cam being unsuitable for car use,  since it will get a mild performance regrind.

 

 

[Matt Wilson]

2 hours ago, FarmerJon said:

Looking at picking up a 251 that is semi local to me, to build into a hot rod engine for my Plymouth. 

It is stamped IND 251.

Got some questions for you guys that have industrial specific books.

Timing cover looks normal.

Did all the IND engines have sodium filled exhaust valves and rotators?

How do you tell if they have full flow oil filter capability? ( no filter is on it)

Going into a US P15, will there be problems with crank flange/flywheel/starter alignment?

Are there industrial 3 ring pistons still available? Did they all have these?

 

I am not worried about Cam being unsuitable for car use,  since it will get a mild performance regrind.

 

 

According to my Chrysler Six Cylinder Industrial Engines Manual, No. D-12154, Second Edition, sodium-cooled exhaust valves are standard equipment on some models - In. 7, 7A, 8 and 8A engines, which are the 236.6 cid and 250.6 cid engines.  It seems that your engine would have come with sodium-cooled exhaust valves, originally.  The manual goes on to say that engines equipped with sodium-cooled valves were fitted with a plate, attached to the right side of the engine, just behind the engine serial number.  Of course, that might be gone from yours by now, after all these years.

 

I don't see anything in the manual about valve rotators for any of the engines.

 

As for full-flow filter capability, look for a diamond-shaped raised pad on the left side of the block, just behind the distributor, below the freeze plug (see attached photo).

 

I don't know the answer to your question about the flywheel/crankshaft flange/starter gear aligment.

 

As for pistons and rings, the industrial engine manual show images of pistons with four rings, and contains discussion of there being two compression rings and two oil rings, and I believe all of the early flatheads (industrial and otherwise) came with 4-ring pistons.  However, the later flathead six engines came with 3-ring pistons.  I know this because I took apart a 251 from an early 60's Power Wagon, and I'm quite certain it had never been rebuilt, and it had 3-ring pistons (it's not an industrial engine, though).  The newly made pistons I've ordered for these engines, such as those made by Sealed Power, are made to accommodate 3 rings and are made of cast aluminum.  Interestingly, the pistons for the Ind. 5, 5A, 7, 7A, and 8, 8A engines (217.8 cid, 236.6 cid and 250.6 cid) came with cast iron pistons, according to the industrial manual.  Only the Ind. 6, 6A (230.2 cid) engine is stated to have come with aluminum pistons.  Having said that, I would have no hesitation in using aluminum pistons in their place.  I'm not sure if cast iron pistons can even be found for these engines now.  If they can, they would be NOS, and I've never heard of such pistons. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Matt Wilson

[Dodgeb4ya]

I have never seen valve rotators on the 25" engines....only on the 30" engines and of course ind. Hemi's.

Sodium valves would be some what common on H-duty apications. Brass valve guides used on some engines

I have engines using these H-duty up grades.

One note...marine engines and others sometimes are reverse rotation... meaning the cam and oil pump gears are different than passenger cars.

Tri-layered heavy duty bearings are used in most industrial engines too.

Good luck finding those severe service  bearings for a flathead today.?

[Sniper]

Regarding three ring pistons, for the 230 anyway.  Do they exist?  I have only seen 4 ring ones.  I'd be happy to ditch a ring.

[Matt Wilson]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Sniper said:

Regarding three ring pistons, for the 230 anyway.  Do they exist?  I have only seen 4 ring ones.  I'd be happy to ditch a ring.

Sniper, I think you're right.  I went out and looked at the 230 pistons from the engine I rebuilt 20 years ago (and took apart about 10 years ago), and they have four rings.  Also, the Sealed Power pistons I have for a 25" block (237, 251, 265) use four rings as well.  I had forgotten about that.  The custom pistons I ordered for my 265, and the original 251 pistons from the early 60's 251 I disassembled do indeed use only three rings (see photo of original piston below), so that's probably where I got mixed up.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Now days I would only want three ring pistons...recently had Arias make me up a custom forged set...

[Veemoney]

What did you shoot for on compression? I like the modern ring set-up, care to share cost for the upgrade?

[FarmerJon]

I would be interested in hearing details on the pistons as well. 

Weight, compression height, availability of the rings, price ( if you don't mind sharing)

 

Did some reading up on the sodium filled valves.

In OHV flow tests, stem diameter can reduce flow, but from best to worst it was only a 2% difference. I wonder if results would be the same with the much more restricted ports of our flatheads? It would seem like it might be more of a restriction due to the fact that the ports are already so small. The bigger stem takes up a larger percentage of the port, vs a thinner stem.

But the sodium filled valves yield chamber cooling benefits that can stave off pre ignition and burnt valves in a hard use engine. 

 

Interesting stuff.

Edited July 21, 2023 by FarmerJon

[Dodgeb4ya]

The piston I posted a pic of is for a

4-1/16" 413ci. 30" flat head engine.

The Arias spec sheet wouldn't be of much help for the 251/265 engines.

The design and build cost was horrendous.

[Matt Wilson]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:23 AM, FarmerJon said:

I would be interested in hearing details on the pistons as well. 

Weight, compression height, availability of the rings, price ( if you don't mind sharing)

 

Did some reading up on the sodium filled valves.

In OHV flow tests, stem diameter can reduce flow, but from best to worst it was only a 2% difference. I wonder if results would be the same with the much more restricted ports of our flatheads? It would seem like it might be more of a restriction due to the fact that the ports are already so small. The bigger stem takes up a larger percentage of the port, vs a thinner stem.

But the sodium filled valves yield chamber cooling benefits that can stave off pre ignition and burnt valves in a hard use engine. 

 

Interesting stuff.

I bought my pistons from JE Pistons, for my 251 (25" engine) that I'm converting to a 265 by swapping the crankshaft and rods (same bore and piston sizes for both engines). 

 

The pistons are the same compression height as the stock pistons (1.977"), and the compression ratio will be the same as if I had used stock pistons. 

 

The sales person at JE recommended their ring set JG2206-3484, which is for a 3.484" bore.  My bores are actually 3.480", but the sales guy said the rings would accommodate that difference without issue.  This is 0.0425" above standard piston size (3.4375"), which is not a standard oversize for this engine, but was greater than the existing 0.030" overbore that my previous machine shop messed up (a separate story) and it's a more modern ring set that should work for my application.  The two compression rings are 1.5 mm thick, and the oil ring set is 4 mm thick.  The top compression ring is made of steel (not cast iron) and has a barrel-shaped face with a gas nitride coating.  The second compression ring is cast iron and has a different shape.  These rings are lower in tension than the stock rings originally used in our engines, but not as low in tension as the most modern ring sets, but I figured it would be a good improvement, nonetheless.  I ordered the ring set through Throtl.com, as they had a much better price than JE themselves did.  I think the price at JE was around $225, while Throtl was something like $160, if I recall correctly.

 

The pistons are forged 4032 aluminum and weigh about 455 grams, whereas the 0.030" pistons I was originally going to use, from Sealed Power, are cast aluminum and weigh about 540 grams.  You can see the difference in appearance between the JE pistons and the OEM-style pistons from Sealed Power in the photo below.  The Sealed Power pistons are nearly identical to the OEM pistons that I pulled from the engine when I disassembled it, with the  most obvious difference being that the OEM pistons used three rings, while the Sealed Power pistons use four.

 

I opted to use the wrist pins from my Sealed Power pistons that I'm not going to use, and I had already gotten the rod bushings sized to fit those pins by a shop that has a bushing burnishing machine that is rare to find, so I didn't want to change pin size.  Consequently, JE had to fabricate the pistons to fit my pins, which are not a standard size they normally use.  The pins are the standard size for our flatheads, which is 0.8592" in diameter, and the nearest size that JE typically uses is 0.866", so they had to trick their system to get it to size the pin bores correctly.  They got it wrong the first time, but made it right with the second piston set (no charge to me, and in fact a little bit of a discount for my inconvenience).  One thing I should point out is that they sent me wrist pin retainers (wire locks) that are made for their standard 0.866" wrist pins, and after trying for hours, I finally gave up on trying to get even a single one installed.  I found some Manley wrist pin locks, p/n 42270-16, which are a little smaller in overall diameter than the ones JE had sent me, but they are the same wire thickness (diameter), and I was able to fit both of the ones I tried in just a few minutes, so I think they will work fine.

 

Cost for the pistons, including shipping and tax, was just under $900, before the discount I mentioned above, but that was in February of 2022 (yes, this project is taking me a long time) and when I had a need to talk again with JE a few months ago, they said the prices had gone up several percent.

 

Hopefully this info is of some help.

Edited March 8 by Matt Wilson

[War Dog]

My father drove a cement truck. Its drum was turned by a 230 with 3seed transmission. It was hooked to a short driveshaft. That turned a Chrysler rear end with only one axle. He use to tell he how dangerous it was on a curve lol. He said a lot of trucks turned over.

[TrampSteer]

Would any of these industrial engines be marked other than the prefix of IND?  I'm trying to identify an engine that came into my possession that looks and smells like a dodge flathead but the stamped cast number is I04-I567 (those are both letter i not 1). Probably a combine but I just can't match it to anything.

[MBSoPaB]

Hey TrampSteer, I too have one of those goofy 'IO4' stamped engines.  I was on the hunt for a core 265 to play with, and took a chance on a stationary engine at auction; it ended up being the longer 25" head engine, however displacement was only 237 cubes once I figured out the stroke.  

In the case of my 237, it was on a sled-like stationary stand, with gauge panel, radiator, tin roof, all one unit.  It appeared to once have held a gas tank (missing), and the various farm modifications held no further identification clues.  The output end of things was a truck bellhousing sans throw out bearing shaft, with a multi-piece adapter to run a splined coupler which matched no current SAE bolt pattern, nor PTO shaft configuration.  My best guess would have been irrigation pump powerplant, as it was irrigation country, but that's just a guess.  As it sits on my spares rack, I haven't been inclined to pull tappet covers, but what I could see of the valve stems while rotating the engine didn't appear any larger than the usual automotive diameter.  Timing gear cover appears to be a passenger vehicle piece (unlike some marine or forklift applications, where the implement is driven by the timing gear end of the crank).  The accessory pulley is the separate bolted pulley and hub style as shows up on the powerwagons (and some other places).

Aside from what was bolted to the flywheel, and the accessory drive pulley, everything else looks like passenger vehicle or medium duty truck parts that I've come across.

Hopefully your search for more information on your engine is fruitful!

 

[TrampSteer]

On 6/29/2024 at 3:24 PM, MBSoPaB said:

... My best guess would have been irrigation pump powerplant, as it was irrigation country, but that's just a guess... 

I think I would have to concur. Guess I will clean it up and take some measurements to see if the cam is not flat and give it a shot for the fun of it. Looks like it is pretty well used up. Def worthy of yard art. 
 Thanks for the info!

[Tired iron]

Up until about ten years ago, I owned a small tugboat, a WWII sea mule, that had a pair of Chrysler Royals in it.  Are those marine motors very similar to the industrial category?

[Ray Terio]

Hi guys!  I am no mechanic but learning..

I have a Bombardier J5 with a 251 in it… I had my carb cleaned and a new kit installed but now even though the float is adjusted right I can start it and it was starting fine before!  
I was told that there is new carbs out there that could replaced this one and work better!  Would you guys have any suggestions to help me please?

[MBSoPaB]

Hello Ray, and welcome to the forum!

 

• First off, downdraft or updraft carburetor?  

• Next, governor, or ungoverned?

If the prior (downdraft), you have options and decisions to consider.  If the latter (updraft), fewer options, and fewer decisions left on the table.

• Blindly trying different carbs can bring with it some tough troubleshooting and tuning issues - that carb that came on your 251 might still be the easiest route to a running snow cat.

• if downdraft, I'll throw the option of a Weber 32/36 progressive out there.  It'll require an adapter for the manifold, and you'll need to consider an air cleaner solution.  If you're height limited in the Bombardier, this could cause some heartache.  In my application, I also opted for an electric fuel pump - they have both 6v or 12v pumps with appropriate pressure (~3.5PSI).  My application uses a pump for the Mazda RX-7 from the early 80's (Delphi or Carter for me).

• You might consider using the search function for carburetor alternatives; it's discussed a few times here in the truck forums, and also over in the passenger vehicle forums, too.

 

Best of luck with the Bombardier!

MBSoPaB