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Engine rebuild questions


dalewalt

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You usually can look at the block to main cap foot print stain to confirm correct cap location...

As long as the block has not been tanked.

When caps are mis- matched they usually bolt done fine but they offset to the side, the bore block to cap line is off and or the bore of the block and cap is completely wrong.

Another reason to have a set of bore gauges  or a bore gauge and a set of micrometers at a minimum to build an engine knowing specs are correct.

 

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40 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

You usually can look at the block to main cap foot print stain to confirm correct cap location...

As long as the block has not been tanked.

When caps are mis- matched they usually bolt done fine but they offset to the side, the bore block to cap line is off and or the bore of the block and cap is completely wrong.

Another reason to have a set of bore gauges  or a bore gauge and a set of micrometers at a minimum to build an engine knowing specs are correct.

 

Buying bore gauges/micrometers may SEEM expensive,but they are not as expensive as putting an engine together with the wrong clearances.

 

Plus,you get to play with tools. Win/win.

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9 hours ago, dalewalt said:

There wasn't any issue with identifying which caps go where... Each of them only fits in one place. And the one that cracked has three oil line connection

 

I feel your pain....but even if you put the correct cap on the  correct journal, you still have the problem of front to rear orientation....reverse this and you can now have an offset in the bore....again, one should have marked the caps prior to removal to allow not only position in rank...but placement in the block....

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I do not understand what you mean by "And the one cracked has  three oil line connection".  Do you think you may have cracked the cap when trying to remove it from the block after removal of the bearing cap bolts? Tapping it with a hammer for example.   Was the engine running before you disassembled it?  What was your reason for deciding to tear this engine down and rebuilding it? My parts manual is for 1949 P17,P18 so things may be different than on your 1940 engine.  My parts manual has the same part number for the two center main bearing caps but also has a Note: " Crankshaft bearing caps, are line reamed to each individual engine at factory;  therefore are not interchangeable.  Replacement caps are supplied with stud holes reamed 1/64" larger and the overall length 1/16" shorter and must be fitted by shimming or removing metal from face of cap as required when line reaming equipment is not available."  I'm suggesting that if you cannot find a replacement cap you may be able to modify your existing cap be reaming the mounting holes 1/64" larger and shortening the length 1/16" and shimming/fitting as required for it to be reused.  Regards.       

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one can fit a 'floating' cap in a single position.....I have done this one time in my life and ran the dog snot out of that engine with no detrimental effect in longevity.  Careful measurements need be taken and adhered to.....maybe best for his machine shop to do the correction....

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1 hour ago, squirebill said:

I do not understand what you mean by "And the one cracked has  three oil line connection".  Do you think you may have cracked the cap when trying to remove it from the block after removal of the bearing cap bolts? Tapping it with a hammer for example.   Was the engine running before you disassembled it?  What was your reason for deciding to tear this engine down and rebuilding it? My parts manual is for 1949 P17,P18 so things may be different than on your 1940 engine.  My parts manual has the same part number for the two center main bearing caps but also has a Note: " Crankshaft bearing caps, are line reamed to each individual engine at factory;  therefore are not interchangeable.  Replacement caps are supplied with stud holes reamed 1/64" larger and the overall length 1/16" shorter and must be fitted by shimming or removing metal from face of cap as required when line reaming equipment is not available."  I'm suggesting that if you cannot find a replacement cap you may be able to modify your existing cap be reaming the mounting holes 1/64" larger and shortening the length 1/16" and shimming/fitting as required for it to be reused.  Regards.       

Should have been "the one cracked has the oil line connection".

 

It may have cracked when I removed it... I had tapped it (all of them) with a dead blow hammer.

 

No, the engine wasn't running; it was completely frozen. (I had tried all of the usual... hydraulic fluid, diesel, etc in the cylinders).

 

Thanks for the info on the replacement caps

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Did you ever determine what had the engine frozen.  Reason I ask is I had my truck in a shop for months with them doing body work on an "as available" time basis.  When they gave it back to me told me told me they had to drop drive shaft so they could get it on the flatbed to deliver to me because the engine was seized.  Took trans out so I could get engine out.  Turns out the engine was free to turn but trans was seized in 2nd gear.  Freed up trans, reinstalled, and was good to go.  Just saying.  Regards.

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Were the cylinders rusted causing the engine to seize ? If not, then the cap was probably cracked before you disassembled it. Not your fault.

 

The way I see it, as do others here (but not all), you have two options. 

 

1) Find another main bearing cap from a 201 and have your block align bored. Toughest part will be finding another cap. You might end up having to buy another whole short block to get what you need. If that's the case then I would:

 

2) Find a later model 218 or 230 rebuild it and install it using the external components of the 201, including the flywheel, bell housing etc. The flywheels and bell housings changed over the time these motors were built and were different depending on the transmission. I think the only critical item is the rear crank flange and bolt pattern for the flywheel. For unknown reasons flywheels from  230's do not match 218's and each has their own flange. Of the two I believe a 218 might be a direct bolt with the same crank offset and flywheel bolt pattern as a 201, and therefore a direct bolt in, but not entirely sure. I think a 201 has smaller diameter flywheel than a later 218 or 230, so you will likely be forced to reuse the 201 flywheel. 

Edited by Dartgame
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A 230 would be a great more powerful upgrade.

Dump the junk 201. 

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Squirebill/Dartgame, yes, the cylinders were rusted and seized.  This was a car my dad had rebuilt back in the '80's.  He passed away in the early 90's, and the car sat for the next twenty five years, first in my mom's garage, then in my brother's garage.   Nobody ever properly stored it.  So I took it on as a project two years ago, I tried the usual... dumping stuff in the cylinders, etc.  Nothing worked.  I decided to completely tear it down and rebuild it. (It was hell just getting the pistons out of the cylinders).  The oil was nothing but sludge.  (Ah, fun times trying to clean it).

 

Bought new camshaft, pistons, valves, guides, gears, etc.  And here's where I'm at.  (I haven't had a whole lot of time over the past two years, so it's a slow process).

 

The good news... I have another engine that I had bought a few years ago.  This one also is seized, but I'm thinking of popping the oil pan off and taking a look at the caps... maybe I can reuse one (I'm going to try to get to that this weekend).  If so, I'll find a machine shop that can align bore the block.

 

Dodgeb4ya, that'd be an idea, except since my dad rebuilt the car w/a 201, I'd like to keep it that way. (Sentimental reasons).

Edited by dalewalt
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21 hours ago, dalewalt said:

Huh. Let me try attaching it from my phone

IMG_20210316_211731945_HDR.jpg

IMHO, that is a classic break caused by not having the cap properly seated in the block recess when torquing it down.  It was likely sitting down on the other side and that one was stuck in the recess.    Maybe because it was swapped front to back?   In any case, the fit of the cap into the block recess is a precision fit and allows no room for error.  Torquing the cap bolt broke that piece off.  And that broken piece was not properly located thus wedging the cap to one side.

 

Is the piece that broke off still in one piece?   If so, being the  gambler that I am, I'd try to salvage it.  The broken piece only serves to locate the cap, left to right in the block.    Well over 1/2 of the area in still intact and prevents the bearing from being crushed by torqueing. So, if I could get it assembled so that the bearing clearance is ok and rotates well my bet is that it would never cause an issue.  But, like I said, I'm a gambler.  Well, maybe just have a fair amount of experience and really tight with a buck.

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3 hours ago, kencombs said:

Is the piece that broke off still in one piece?   If so, being the  gambler that I am, I'd try to salvage it.  The broken piece only serves to locate the cap, left to right in the block.    Well over 1/2 of the area in still intact and prevents the bearing from being crushed by torqueing. So, if I could get it assembled so that the bearing clearance is ok and rotates well my bet is that it would never cause an issue.  But, like I said, I'm a gambler.  Well, maybe just have a fair amount of experience and really tight with a buck.

I do think the broken off piece is still in one piece (I'll have to look to see if I can find it).  Kinda nervous about re-using the cap though.

 

I don't think that I had it swapped (the oil line fitting is on one side, and points to the oil line holes in the block), but it's always possible.

Edited by dalewalt
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9 hours ago, Dartgame said:

Were the cylinders rusted causing the engine to seize ? If not, then the cap was probably cracked before you disassembled it. Not your fault.

 

The way I see it, as do others here (but not all), you have two options. 

 

1) Find another main bearing cap from a 201 and have your block align bored. Toughest part will be finding another cap. You might end up having to buy another whole short block to get what you need. If that's the case then I would:

 

2) Find a later model 218 or 230 rebuild it and install it using the external components of the 201, including the flywheel, bell housing etc. The flywheels and bell housings changed over the time these motors were built and were different depending on the transmission. I think the only critical item is the rear crank flange and bolt pattern for the flywheel. For unknown reasons flywheels from  230's do not match 218's and each has their own flange. Of the two I believe a 218 might be a direct bolt with the same crank offset and flywheel bolt pattern as a 201, and therefore a direct bolt in, but not entirely sure. I think a 201 has smaller diameter flywheel than a later 218 or 230, so you will likely be forced to reuse the 201 flywheel. 

What Dartgame said,all of it,but the most important part is in bold. The extra HP from a 230 will allow you to drive it like a modern car. Mother Mopar made the later flat 6's with more power for good reasons.

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2 hours ago, Sniper said:

There is a 201 for sale on Ebay, $150.  I know nothing about it just saw the listing.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PLYMOUTH-DODGE-CHRYSLER-201-CU-IN-ENGINE-flathead1934-1935/363258885490?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

Thanks Sniper.  I put a watch on this... if I can't use one from my other engine, maybe I'll look into this one.

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