Capt Jeff Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Good evening folks, So I received a new starter, and tossed it in. Prior to the starter, I put in a new battery and a starter solenoid. The previous owner had replaced the voltage regulator and had the generator rebuilt. So everything should be good, but... I go to crank her over for the first time since I have owned it. When we did the trade, she had a dead battery, and then to find out a bad starter. It was probably just the bendex spring, but as mentioned in earlier thread, I have very limited time right now to get her back on the road. So she cranked a few times, ran for a 15-20 seconds and died. I remember the previous owner stating to pump the gas a few times. So I did that, and she rolled over again, then died. No biggie, been a week or two since she ran, so I thought nothing of it. Try #3, the starter was taking a toll on the battery, so I cut the key off. Starter stayed on. No matter what position the key is in, starter stayed on. Thankfully I just installed a battery cut off just hours before the starter swap. I know there was some wicked wiring going on before I got it. A wire grounded out somewhere and did a number on numerous things. Blinker relay is dead, brake light switch is dead. Maybe he was jumping the car with 12V due to the generator not charging. Not sure. I plan to (eventually) do a rewire to be on the safe side. With that said yeah or nah on the 12V conversion? Probably opening a can of worms with that question, similar to "what type of oil to run in a Model A". But first and foremost, I would really like to start the darn thing and turn it around in my garage. So what do you all think? I do have a new ignition key set coming with matching door locks. When I install the ignition tumbler, should I look deeper into the ignition switch? Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated before I just start throwing parts at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Capt Jeff said: So what do you all think? I do have a new ignition key set coming with matching door locks. When I install the ignition tumbler, should I look deeper into the ignition switch? Yes,if by "look deeper into the ignition switch" you mean check and replace EVERY bit of suspiscious wiring". Nothing will ruin the joy of having a "new" old car than having it catch fire and burn your garage and house to the ground with it after it lights up. If you can't afford to replace it all at once,just replace every wire in the ignigition system and the brake lights,and disconnect the rest. You can get by without headlinghts,taillights,dash lights,heater blower,etc,etc,etc for the time being as long as you have brake lights. Buy and replace it ALL one section at a time as you can afford it. The good news is that unlike new cars,the oil pressure and water temp gauges are mechanical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 I'm not sure what you mean by " I cut the key off". Turn the key to off?, cut the wires to the key switch?. Since some of the wires are apparently fried, all the wires need to be replaced/repaired. It's not safe or reliable until you do so. Any of those fried wires can backfeed the ignition or starter solenoid or kill the battery. Having a system that functions when sitting still does not mean it will function when it encounters road bumps and vibrations. Once it's running reliably, you still need to check the suspension components and brake system before it ever hits the highway. I'd have to know well and trust the PO's quality of work before I assumed it was as good as they may have said it was. "Quality work" can a have a huge variance in interpretation. I'd rewire it back as 6 volt and bundle the wires back together with zip ties if you are considering a 12v conversion. The heavier wires for 6v won't hurt you in a 12v conversion and you can easily open it back up again to add or replace wires as needed for a 12 v system. If you decide to retain it as 6v, it's easy enough to finish the bundling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Smallest gage wire I would use is 14 gage to 12 gage wire inthe car. I did my 39 Desoto all with 14 and gage new modern wire and that was over 30 years ago. Rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 I’d certainly re-wire it. You can easily build your own new wires. Depends on your goals. Reliable nice looking driver? Or show winning originality? Begin with a schematic or layout diagram and a half decent multi-meter. You can build your own custom long length lead test wire. While your head is up under the dash tracing wires you can check continuity. Also find ground problems. The long test lead wire, one end can plug into your multimeter, the other at the far end of the circuit. Replace wires with new ones that you can make. Its not difficult. A soldering iron, a wire stripper/crimping tool, some various sizes of heat shrink, a heat gun, solder, various size wires, various connectors and your time is about all you need. Its quite enjoyable and very rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Jeff Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Thank you all for your input. The rewire is going to happen, sooner than later. My biggest concern right now is the starter still running after I turn off the key. The starter solenoid that was installed was a NAPA ST62. Maybe it was 12v and not 6V? I am going to swap that out first. Are there relays inside of the ignition switch, or is it a "dumb" switch? The tumbler is very loose when you put the key in, hence ordering a new tumbler with matching door locks. The starter is new a definitely a 6V unit. What am I missing? I will pull the dash apart today and look at wiring on back of ignition switch, but do to the prices, I just didn't want to order a bunch of parts without understand what is going on. So if we put the major rewire to the side for now, what should I be looking at to stop the starter from running while key is in off position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Backs Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Wiring is the backbone of any car's electrical system. Make sure you don't have 6 & 12v parts "mixed & matched" by a previous amateur. Look for wads of tape and consider these suspect anywhere you see one.Make sure you keep the batt disconnected because that old shellacked textile wiring insulation can go up in flames like solid rocket booster fuel when fed by a short circuit. PS also check ignition switch for internal shorts and as was previously mentioned, the selenoid maybe out of whack ( check feed terminals for signs of heating). Edited March 13, 2021 by Marcel Backs more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Unplug the small wire from the solenoid. If it doesn't stop, tap the solenoid. If it doesn't stop then, get a new solenoid. It's defective. Either way, if it doesn't stop when unplugging the small wire, the solenoid is defective. Edited March 13, 2021 by Dave72dt added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Bypass the IGN switch with a jumper wire between the coil and the battery. Make up a 12 gauge wire with alligator clips on each end. Disconnect either end of the wire to shut off the engine. The only time the small terminal on the solenoid should be hot is when the key in in the start position.a dimple. Icuit tester should allow you to determine that.. that circuit makes the starter hot through a magnetic coil switch within the solenoid. If it's hot other than when key is in start the problem is in that wiring. Either the switch, or crossed wires coming out of the switch. It would also be a simple task to make a new wire from the start terminal on the switch and the small terminal on the solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 41 minutes ago, greg g said: Bypass the IGN switch with a jumper wire between the coil and the battery. Make up a 12 gauge wire with alligator clips on each end. Disconnect either end of the wire to shut off the engine. The only time the small terminal on the solenoid should be hot is when the key in in the start position.a dimple. Icuit tester should allow you to determine that.. that circuit makes the starter hot through a magnetic coil switch within the solenoid. If it's hot other than when key is in start the problem is in that wiring. Either the switch, or crossed wires coming out of the switch. It would also be a simple task to make a new wire from the start terminal on the switch and the small terminal on the solenoid. Those would have been the next steps I would've recommended. He's already stated he has some fried wires so it's very possible it's being fed power elswhere. Simply pulling that wire off the solenoid will test the solenoid and tell him if he is backfeeding the start circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptwothree Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Take a pic of the business side of the dash....where all those wires are. If you see frayed or bare wire, well that should tell you something. 60+ year wiring has seen it's best days. You probably have a solenoid gone bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 According t my Atolite catalog the correct 6v starter selinoid is a SST-4007 used on 46-51 Dodge and 46-51 Plymouth. I also checked my NAPA catalog that cover upto 1954 at the napa selinoid is listed as ST-62 so that is a 6 volt selinoid. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I got a universal 6volt three terminal solenoid at Tractor Supply for around 20 bucks I made a basket for mounting as the holes for mounting weren't the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Jeff Posted March 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2021 Hey all, thanks for the replies. I have been away from my computer for a bit. It was the starter. Got her running, went around the block, then shut her down until I can get some new wires in her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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