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Engine build, Winter 2021


DCJ

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You mentioned sandblasting the block. I strongly recommend against this. ANY sand in an engine is a certain disaster waiting to happen. No matter how well you wash out the block after, you will never get all the sand out. Much better to take it to a machine shop and have them hot tank it and you could also get the measurements done that you want. The shop could also magnaflux the block, head, and crankshaft. Spending a little money wisely can save you spending big money unwisely later on.

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1 hour ago, RobertKB said:

You mentioned sandblasting the block. I strongly recommend against this. ANY sand in an engine is a certain disaster waiting to happen. No matter how well you wash out the block after, you will never get all the sand out. Much better to take it to a machine shop and have them hot tank it and you could also get the measurements done that you want. The shop could also magnaflux the block, head, and crankshaft. Spending a little money wisely can save you spending big money unwisely later on.

I second this statement about sandblasting engine blocks.

 

Quote

Will a machine shop already have the specs for what all these measurements are at stock, so that they can tell me if it's been machined before, or will I need to have those numbers ready for him? Found a shop who can look at it tomorrow and tell me what's going on with it, but I want to tanke sure I'm dilligent with my information when I go as well...

A good machine shop will have the ability to get the critical measurements info or numbers. They had a bunch of MoToR's manuals were I use to work. If you give them the correct engine id info. Which you seem to have (1949 Dodge 230 cu. in. 23-1/2" block), thanks to keithb7. They will measure everything they can, or what you give them (crank, rods, cam, etc.) and give you some option in which directions to go. At least that is what we did, when I worked in the machine shop at the auto parts store. 

Edited by ccudahy
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1 hour ago, RobertKB said:

You mentioned sandblasting the block. I strongly recommend against this. ANY sand in an engine is a certain disaster waiting to happen. No matter how well you wash out the block after, you will never get all the sand out. Much better to take it to a machine shop and have them hot tank it and you could also get the measurements done that you want. The shop could also magnaflux the block, head, and crankshaft. Spending a little money wisely can save you spending big money unwisely later on.

Yes, I agree, I already talked to the machine shop, and they said they can do that (a lot less mess for me anyway...). I also don't blast with anything that isn't water soluble. Sometimes takes longer, but I've heard of horror stories about guys using glass, or oxide, shavings and chips that get stuck in places they shouldn't be... Or sucked up into things they shouldn't be in either. 

 

Definitely going to be worth it to let this guy handle this all at once. He says he can get it all the way prepped for paint for me (at least the block and head). 

 

Just as a question... Might be sort of dumb, but when they hot tank/ strip this thing, can they also do other things like some of my brackets and oil pan, valve covers, etc.?

 

 

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1 minute ago, DCJ said:

Just as a question... Might be sort of dumb, but when they hot tank/ strip this thing, can they also do other things like some of my brackets and oil pan, valve covers, etc.?

Yes, anything that has oily sludge like your oil pan and tappet covers can be hot tanked. Brackets, it all depend on which ones. Sometime they will glass bead blast them depend what is on them (rust or grease). 

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Awesome, thanks for the info!

 

I'm really trying to get as many parts as I can ready for paint. Machine guy says he can get my block ready for that, but I'm not sure what that means, or if his procedure would be useful for the other components I have that I'd like to have done. 

 

This engine does have surface rust, as do covers and such. Just trying to figure the best way to go about doing this.

 

I had a motorcycle frame done years back, prepped for paint, but I just honest to god can not remember what it was that I had done. I remember we had it 'dipped' somewhere, and when it came back, we just painted away at it.

 

Is there a recommendation to get some of these smaller parts (brackets, manifolds, etc.) free of rust and ready for paint that does not include sandblasting them. If I have to have them blasted that's fine, but if the machine shop I go to can just do absolutely everything at once, that would be the bees knees!

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The hot tank process is caustic soda and water and it is heated to about 130°-140°F, if remember right about the temp. Its more for internal coolant passage mineral build up and grease removal than for rust. The place I worked for used to paint the blocks with cast iron colored paint over the rust stains, before painting the color. 

 

Most machine shops will do what you ask, to a point and if they have the capabilities. Guys would dump their engines off and say, "Do the whole thing, paint also". We would blast parts and paint pulleys and brackets black and assembly a pretty motor for pickup when done.

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If you remove the rod bearing and clean the back normally you will find a p/n which will probably include the maker and size info. Likewise, oversize piston usually have that info on the top.  
doesn’t replace measurements but just to help identify what you’re starting with

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DCJ...........do you have a workshop manual?..........even if you intend to get the machine shop to do everything its still a good idea to read the engine section completely so you know exactly what the parts are called etc........I'm not being pedantic but those "sleeves" that you refer to are actually the bearings..........I've never heard them referred to as sleeves.............its just a good idea to get as much info as you can so that you understand the various processes, etc that can or should be done to rebuild & repair the engine.........BTW, welcome to the forum from Oz................Andy Douglas  

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As Robert mentioned, Ditto! Degrease block until none exists, attack block with various wire wheels and brushes on a drill you are comfortable with for many many hours. Once clean wipe it of with pre kleeno until shop cloth stays clean and block appears as a nice cast surface. Mask off and spray with VHT brushed aluminum engine paint. Results are surprising! M

PS dipping should precede these steps and should ensure all passages are properly cleaned out. I cleaned and painted my block after it came back from the rebuilder making sure any openings were masked off. 

Edited by Marcel Backs
more info
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1 hour ago, Andydodge said:

DCJ...........do you have a workshop manual?..........even if you intend to get the machine shop to do everything its still a good idea to read the engine section completely so you know exactly what the parts are called etc........I'm not being pedantic but those "sleeves" that you refer to are actually the bearings..........I've never heard them referred to as sleeves.............its just a good idea to get as much info as you can so that you understand the various processes, etc that can or should be done to rebuild & repair the engine.........BTW, welcome to the forum from Oz................Andy Douglas  

 

I do, actually. Haven't spent too much time in it. I picked this car up on trade in April (first 'real' classic), and didn't really even get a chance to mess with it until a couple weekends back. 

 

I did order a digital version of the shop manual, and have that available to me (Ordered from Detroit Iron Information Systems), but am just now getting into this project in general, and there is a lot of information in there.

 

 Another guy over in a Jalopy forum had posted a video of a guy rebuilding one of these things, and called them bearing 'sleeves' (which, from a purely aesthetic perspective makes sense I guess). Maybe he was using the term to make sure there was no confusion about more standard/ recognizable  bearing types in case someone was needing a more literal descriptory adjective to pair it with? Not sure, but I'll be sure to be a bit more diligent with my usage. This is my first full teardown... A LOT of learning progress has had to be made very, very quickly.

 

I ask a lot of questions, some a bit elementary, really to make sure that I understand what I *think I understand, before I start making decisions about it. This stuff can get expensive, very quickly, and I really like my money safe (haha).

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5 hours ago, DCJ said:

Yes, I agree, I already talked to the machine shop, and they said they can do that (a lot less mess for me anyway...). I also don't blast with anything that isn't water soluble. Sometimes takes longer, but I've heard of horror stories about guys using glass, or oxide, shavings and chips that get stuck in places they shouldn't be... Or sucked up into things they shouldn't be in either. 

 

Definitely going to be worth it to let this guy handle this all at once. He says he can get it all the way prepped for paint for me (at least the block and head). 

 

Just as a question... Might be sort of dumb, but when they hot tank/ strip this thing, can they also do other things like some of my brackets and oil pan, valve covers, etc.?

 

 

Is there some reason you aren't letting him paint it for you,too? After all,it will be squeaky clean and ready for paint,and all you have to do is buy the factory paint and drop it off for him to spray.

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The casting dates for the block and head are found along a vertical line with the distributor...dates that are within a few days of each other are likely indicative of a matched set... additional information - flathead identification 

 

additional information - engine casting painting

 

additional information - forum flatheads :cool:

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13 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Is there some reason you aren't letting him paint it for you,too? After all,it will be squeaky clean and ready for paint,and all you have to do is buy the factory paint and drop it off for him to spray.

THat's a good question. I suppose it all really comes down to cost, in a way. I like doing things myself an awful lot. If he's able to paint it and have it all ready to go, and it won't cost me much to do it, then it's very likely I'll have him do that. I won't be able to get the stuff to him today, but am planning on getting everything to him on Monday. I'll ask him to include the other stuff in his quote for me at that time.

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DCJ.........If you have a paper manual I'd suggest read the engine section completely as that will give you the factory terms to use when referencing the engine and its parts..........personally I prefer a paper manual simply because its as authorised by the factory and by reading it you tend to pickup the info without having to rely on moving a mouse or your finger, its just turning a page ..........a scanned electronic copy assumes that however/whoever scanned it didn't miss anything........but me being a Luddite, I look at things that way...........andyd 

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I read technical and reference books about automobiles and their various systems quite often. I crave the new (old) info that I learn. The most exciting book I acquired in recent memory was Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia. It's a 3” thick tome of all things automotive. A great read for any newbie! Its like the big old bible of automotive. 

 

Recently I was reading my Motors Manual about valve guides. They claimed that excessive valve to guide clearance can cause a burnt valve. How so? I don't quite grasp that. Maybe the valve could eventually become cock-eyed in the guide? The valve sealing surface becomes uneven, sealing incomplete? The valve can't cool properly? That would be some serious valve guide clearance wear. I guess so...Pretty sure the average person here would know something was up, and needed attention before things go that bad.

Edited by keithb7
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the guide performs two essential functions, it keeps the valve centered in the seat and it cools the valve stem.  The seat does most of the cooling of the valve though.  Roughly 75% of the cooling is from the seat, the remainder from the guide.  The narrower the seat (think three angle valve job) the more heat the guide handles.

 

If the guide is worn it can allow excess oil into the port coating the valves with a nice carbon insulation not to mention fouling plugs.  Worn guides can also allow the valve to seat improperly cause a part of the seat on the valve to not cool properly and allow it to get burned.  Doesn't take much slop to start issues.

 

We are fortunate that there is virtually no side thrust on the valve, unlike an OHV setup where the rocker imparts a side load.  If the guide gets worn enough it can allow the valve to "wobble" in the seat and potentially break the head off as it hits one side first.  Just remember that the valve is opening and closing at half the RPM, so at 3000 rpm the valve is smacking into the seat 1500 times per minute, if it hits uneven the head will start to flex back and forth on the stem, eventually work hardening and snapping off.

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One thing about block cleaning...the shop tanks often do not get it all out. I use about 4 large cans of oven cleaner on the bare block with all the plugs out, both core plugs and ALL the oil gallery plugs including the front and the rear. I use long brushes to run the oil galleries. I scrub and scrum until it is clean. I then wire wheel it to bare metal. I then clean it with lot of Oxy Clean in solution. I then blow dry it and take to the machine shop. They then do the machine work on the block, then I have then hot tank it to get all the machine crud out of it. I then have them build the short block or do it myself.

 

I also second the idea to make SURE your shop checks with clay the distance between the valves and the head to make sure that the block has not been decked or the head cut too many times....ask me how I know this....

 

James.

 

By the way...where are you located?

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8 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

One thing about block cleaning...the shop tanks often do not get it all out. I use about 4 large cans of oven cleaner on the bare block with all the plugs out, both core plugs and ALL the oil gallery plugs including the front and the rear. I use long brushes to run the oil galleries. I scrub and scrum until it is clean. I then wire wheel it to bare metal. I then clean it with lot of Oxy Clean in solution. I then blow dry it and take to the machine shop. They then do the machine work on the block, then I have then hot tank it to get all the machine crud out of it. I then have them build the short block or do it myself.

 

I also second the idea to make SURE your shop checks with clay the distance between the valves and the head to make sure that the block has not been decked or the head cut too many times....ask me how I know this....

 

James.

 

By the way...where are you located?

 

Sorry I disappeared for a few days fellas!

 

I've been combing my manual the last couple days...

 

My valve spring compression tool was not here on Thursday afternoon... THen it didn't show up on Thursday... and NOW I'm being told it will be here Tuesday. Not too worried though, I have plenty of time. Cars' been here since the middle of the 20th century, I think it can survive a few frustrating days with me (haha).

 

Also discovered that the 'sleeves' I keep referring to, are actually referred to as 'bearing shells' in my shop manual (PG 222 Dodge Shop Manual, Section 8). I suppose that's also a rather 'on-the-nose' term to use for them as well. I guess just 'bearings' should work. 

 

I think I'm going to actually print out the specific tolerance guides out of my manual for this, and supply him with those, just in case.

 

I'm located East of Cincinnati, OH. Specifically just outside of a tiny, tiny town called Sardinia. We have one bar, one pizza place, and a single gas station/ grocery deal called The Sardinia Market (or whatever...).

 

If anyone is nearby, that would be pretty sweet beans right there...

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  • 3 weeks later...

I know where Sardinia is. I grew up in cincinnati, then spent 29 years in Harrison before relocating to Versailles in southwest indiana. I have a 49 chrysler royal and  fortunately have not had any engine issues. Don's crankshaft was always my machine shop of choice but they are long gone. I have also used Smyth automotive for head work, flywheel work etc. They used to have flat rate pricing but to be honest it's been about 10 years since I used them. Just a option to talk to  that's not too far away from your location

 

Jeff

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Just an FYI - it appears your pistons skirts might have been knurled, knurling was used in the old days to take up clearance between piston and the cylinder. Its an old procedure that was done to cut costs when rebuilding a motor. It allowed one to reuse their old pistons, hone the cylinder, and use new rings to save money. I've seen this once before in a buddies '65 383 we tore down. So I would say for certain your motor has been apart before.

 

You might consider - if there is a next time - to find a partner/buddy/car guy or someone on this site to walk you through a motor tear down. You can learn a heck of a lot about your engine by doing a careful disassembly - measuring using plastigauge - each rod journal and each main bearing as you go would give you the clearance measurements without using calipers or other tools. Plastigauge is cheap (5-10$) and available at any decent autoparts store.

 

It sounds like you've got your path set with a good machine shop. Be sure to inquire about the bearing and other clearances they end up with etc. when you get it back from them. Compare their figures with the specs for your year engine. If not in spec ask them about it.

 

Good luck with your project !

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On 2/9/2021 at 6:33 PM, 47Jim said:

DCJ did you ever figure out what the silver metallic goop in the pan was? That describes exactly what I found under a thin layer of black oil in my pan, I thought it was bars leak type stuff.

 

Jim, 

 

I have not yet been able to get my block up to machine shop, but I'll try to catch some pictures of this goo if I find some more (there was some in the bottom of the pan when I removed it, I just havent messed with the thing in a few weeks). 

 

Give me a few days, it's going into the teens this weekend out here, so I have some other winterizing I need to complete!

 

On 2/10/2021 at 5:46 PM, Dartgame said:

Just an FYI - it appears your pistons skirts might have been knurled, knurling was used in the old days to take up clearance between piston and the cylinder. Its an old procedure that was done to cut costs when rebuilding a motor. It allowed one to reuse their old pistons, hone the cylinder, and use new rings to save money. I've seen this once before in a buddies '65 383 we tore down. So I would say for certain your motor has been apart before.

 

You might consider - if there is a next time - to find a partner/buddy/car guy or someone on this site to walk you through a motor tear down. You can learn a heck of a lot about your engine by doing a careful disassembly - measuring using plastigauge - each rod journal and each main bearing as you go would give you the clearance measurements without using calipers or other tools. Plastigauge is cheap (5-10$) and available at any decent autoparts store.

 

It sounds like you've got your path set with a good machine shop. Be sure to inquire about the bearing and other clearances they end up with etc. when you get it back from them. Compare their figures with the specs for your year engine. If not in spec ask them about it.

 

Good luck with your project !

 

Thanks!

 

It was pretty apparent as I started pulling down into this that it had been apart previously. I just kept finding random/ non-matching gasket builder, bolts, nuts, washers, etc.

 

I will definitely know more when I get it up to machine shop. I just need to find time at this point. Had a few other bills pop up as priorities, and I needed to engage those first!

On 2/10/2021 at 8:47 PM, tom'sB2B said:

I encourage you to check out this thread. It really helped me on my rebuild and he did an amazing job.

I will also humbly submit my own rebuild thread.  These may help answer some of your questions.

Good luck with your project.

 

THanks! 

 

I'll take a look into these threads for sure, I've been disconnected the last few weeks (got stuck in a few other projects that I hadn't anticipated).

 

I really appreciate all the support, and I'll try to keep moving forward with this project asap!

 

DJ

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