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Engine build, Winter 2021


DCJ

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Hello all, 

 

I made a post several days ago about my rough idle issue, I only just got the motor running a couple weekends back, so this is all fresh... I ended up rebuilding the carb (cleaned, all new seals, etc.), but it still ran sort of goofy. 

 

Well... I decided to get frisky with it, and just pulled the whole motor (frustration and boredom are a funny couple). 

 

A little backstory here... After I sat a new 6V starter, and a brand new battery in it, she would NEVER start under her own power. I mean, would barely turn over here, if it even did that most times. I ended up having to jump it every time (yes... I already know, bad for 6v components) off of my 24V Cummins (with 1000 CCA at that), and even then it was much, much harder than I felt it should have been. I ended up fashioning my own main battery cables out of much heavier 00 wire, and grounded it directly to the starter casing, hoping that it was a simple amperage issue dropping after having to run through the entire block back down to the starter... No dice, didn't help at all. 

 

Once it was running, I finally was able to take some readings coming from the generator (I already felt like I was going to need to re-do internals), and it was pushing a steady 7.5-.8 volts at idle, and a steady 6.97 was running back to the battery.

 

I've never broken one of these down before, so I took a few pictures. I'm getting ready to pull the valves, and springs, and cam shaft out of this guy, so those will be gone tomorrow.

 

I noticed on some of the slip-in sleeves at the ends of the rods, there were several places where there were strange 'chunks' missing out of them (also pictured). I figure they must have just been cheap, but I don't know exactly what I'm looking at either. I do NOT think that these pistons are stock. For one thing, they are missing the heat slit/ cut vertically down the side of the pistons ( I thought that was standard back then for these engines). 

 

I also noticed on cylinder #1, there was a bit of abnormal charring on one area of the cylinder above the first ring (pictured also). No sure if that means the cylinder itself isn't round, or if it's just normal buildup?

 

I want to paint this engine, and put it back together, but I'm honestly not sure what to start getting into after I pull these valves. I planned on sandblasting it myself and painting (eventually...), but I clearly have other things I need to address.

 

Do I HAVE to put new guides in for these valves, and do I HAVE to completely replace all the valves themselves? If I don't, can I clean them up and return them, or do I HAVE to have them cleaned up/ machined before I can do that? How do I know if the head/ cylinders have been machined before? Is that something that I MUST do, or is that sort of an extreme situation? If it has been, do I need to order new pistons completely? Does anyone think I need to order new pistons and rings?

 

Never done this before, just looking for some guidance... Or a LOT?

 

 

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I gotta admit,when I saw the first photo of that rod bearing surface,I had to flinch. What did the bearings look like? Have you miked the crank to see if they were the right size?

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1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

I gotta admit,when I saw the first photo of that rod bearing surface,I had to flinch. What did the bearings look like? Have you miked the crank to see if they were the right size?

I have not, no, but I'm not entirely sure what it should come out to either. I do NOT have much of a machining background at all. I can take the measurements, but I'm not sure what to measure, or what those metrics need to reflect. I'll be hunting down a gauge tomorrow to add to the collection, but I was hoping to find a gauge for the bore as well, not sure what to go searching for.

 

I also get a very, very strong sense that this motor has been 'rebuilt' before. there are numerous bright-blue gaskets all over the place, definitely modern, and they go all the way down to the deepest parts of this motor. I do not think that the pistons are original, and I don't know if it's been bored in the past, because I really don't know how to tell, or what to look for. 

 

THere's mis-matched bolts and whatnot all over the place as well. I'm definitely not impressed so far with the general quality of the build at this point. 

 

There's a bracket of some sort on the camshaft where it meets the timing chain sprocket... It looks like someone might have stripped out the original bolt that went into it... Then attempted to tap it and thread a larger bolt in (they accomplished that), but it weakened that end of the bracket so much that it cracked off (see above pictures).

 

 

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2 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Curious, was there glycol coolant in the oil pan?

That's a very good question... 

 

Not sure, actually. I can tell you that there was this strange, silver, metallic, 'goop' in there though. Not a ton of the stuff... but definitely enough to make me scratch my head. I thought it looked like a soupy version of Permatex anti-seize...

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Machine shops might be swamped this time of year, but ya might want to go all the way and strip that engine down, hot tank it, and get the block, head, and maybe crankshaft magnafluxed for cracks...I'd hate to see a ton of work put into an engine and the thing 'splode on a highway cruise outta town.  As for valve guides, a quick rule of thumb is to pull the springs out and listen if the valves rattle in the guides when jiggled by hand...they're not supposed to be super tight but if I hear them clicking around, I replace them all.  But definitely go over the entire engine with a fine tooth comb, checking for flaws and dims out of tolerance...it's way easier to deal with it now in it's stripped down state.  Those pistons look OK, if there are scratches along the side or chunks missing from the ring areas, then those are kaput.  If rings appear flawless (no cracks or carbon buildup or material missing), then they may be OK if they measure to specs...tho if the block needs to be honed because of cylinder taper, then you'll need new pistons and rings anyways.  If ya had a way to accurately check the top of the block and the head with a true straight edge, that might be an option, but typically a machine shop has equipment that can do that by machining off .002" or so to clean up mating surfaces.  Better yet, find a machine shop that can do the work, they can tell ya what they can  do and go from there.  Of course, then ya might get into the discussion of trying to get 9:1 CR, but that might be too aggressive.  Lots to consider, but definitely consider looking at your CR to see if ya can squeeze a few more hp out of that flathead :cool:

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3 minutes ago, DCJ said:

I have not, no, but I'm not entirely sure what it should come out to either. I do NOT have much of a machining background at all. I can take the measurements, but I'm not sure what to measure, or what those metrics need to reflect. I'll be hunting down a gauge tomorrow to add to the collection, but I was hoping to find a gauge for the bore as well, not sure what to go searching for.

 

I also get a very, very strong sense that this motor has been 'rebuilt' before. there are numerous bright-blue gaskets all over the place, definitely modern, and they go all the way down to the deepest parts of this motor. I do not think that the pistons are original, and I don't know if it's been bored in the past, because I really don't know how to tell, or what to look for. 

 

THere's mis-matched bolts and whatnot all over the place as well. I'm definitely not impressed so far with the general quality of the build at this point. 

 

There's a bracket of some sort on the camshaft where it meets the timing chain sprocket... It looks like someone might have stripped out the original bolt that went into it... Then attempted to tap it and thread a larger bolt in (they accomplished that), but it weakened that end of the bracket so much that it cracked off (see above pictures).

 

 

 

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

I gotta admit,when I saw the first photo of that rod bearing surface,I had to flinch. What did the bearings look like? Have you miked the crank to see if they were the right size?

 

 

Sorry, I actually did NOT attach that picture...

 

Those pictures were of the sleeves themselves, not the actual rod surface, there are no bearings underneath those that they ride on. They ride directly against the crankshaft. 

 

In that context though... The crankshaft surfaces seem to be super smoothe, I didn't notice any scoring, or marring of any kind on any of the rod to crank meeting places. Just some weird wearing on the rod to crank sleeves (they just seem really cheap, honestly). 

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after looking a little closer at the connecting rod and cap pics, I see a few problems.  Those connecting rod bearings should have a pronounced bent corner that locks into the corresponding notches on the cap and connecting rod, to keep the bearings from spinning when the caps are torqued down to the connecting rods.  Also, the hole in those bearings should line up to the oil hole on the connecting rod.  As for those strange marks, that appears to be a spalling defect, where the bearing material is actually coming apart...that could be from a manufacturing defect or poor quality, or from a lack of lubrication.   Looks like ya caught a serious problem before it got ugly ?

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2 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

Machine shops might be swamped this time of year, but ya might want to go all the way and strip that engine down, hot tank it, and get the block, head, and maybe crankshaft magnafluxed for cracks...I'd hate to see a ton of work put into an engine and the thing 'splode on a highway cruise outta town.  As for valve guides, a quick rule of thumb is to pull the springs out and listen if the valves rattle in the guides when jiggled by hand...they're not supposed to be super tight but if I hear them clicking around, I replace them all.  But definitely go over the entire engine with a fine tooth comb, checking for flaws and dims out of tolerance...it's way easier to deal with it now in it's stripped down state.  Those pistons look OK, if there are scratches along the side or chunks missing from the ring areas, then those are kaput.  If rings appear flawless (no cracks or carbon buildup or material missing), then they may be OK if they measure to specs...tho if the block needs to be honed because of cylinder taper, then you'll need new pistons and rings anyways.  If ya had a way to accurately check the top of the block and the head with a true straight edge, that might be an option, but typically a machine shop has equipment that can do that by machining off .002" or so to clean up mating surfaces.  Better yet, find a machine shop that can do the work, they can tell ya what they can  do and go from there.  Of course, then ya might get into the discussion of trying to get 9:1 CR, but that might be too aggressive.  Lots to consider, but definitely consider looking at your CR to see if ya can squeeze a few more hp out of that flathead :cool:

Thank you for the info!

 

I've never pulled an engine completely down before, so this is definitely an ambitious project for me... 

 

I would appreciate if you stuck close by this thread, I'll be visiting it frequently as I move forward, and can always use all the help I can get understanding what I'm looking for/ at. 

 

I have a machine shop that I used several years ago to mill down the head of an ex's car I was rebuilding after she blew a head gasket, I'm sure they would know more. Do you have any idea how much it might cost for a shop to clean this block up (get it stripped enough for paint maybe/ clean up and verify the surfaces are flat and ready to go?)

 

I just really don't know how to tell what I can/ should try to save and re-use, and what I HAVE to replace. I'm not sure how to determine if a cylinder has been bored in the past, and what that means toward my build today (if it makes the pistons I have useless, etc.).

 

My BIGGEST worry right now, is trying to figure out what made this engine so damn hard to turn. I would absoultey lose my nuggets if I get this thing back together and its that tight again...

 

I feared high compression at first (still a legitimate concern after discovering all this hooey inside)... But after I pulled the head I still needed a breaker bar with a pole on it to turn the motor. It was so hard I almost flipped the whole contraption over, stand and all trying to turn this thing. The cylinder walls are still smoothe, no gouges or scarring I can see. 

 

Not sure how hard this thing was supposed to be to start, but good lord heavens on high. I called a mechanic friend of mine who said he didn't think it should be so hard to crack, especially after running dual 1k CCA diesel batteries to it...

 

 

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Hope you marked the main caps before removal.

Got to put em back where they came from.

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I believe if ya put a torque wrench on the belt pulley nut, with the spark plugs in place, the engine should only need 40-60 ft-lbs to turn...the high torque needed sounds like a spun connecting rod bearing, which effectively wedges the connecting rod on the crankshaft.

 

As for costs of services, it varies from machine shop to shop sometimes depending on their work load...I had some head work done one year that was cheaper than my previous project as the guys were kinda slow that summer.

 

Engine specs are in the factory shop manual, so ya need to study that to get started and check a few things before ya get it down to the machine shop.  If the engine was bored, then the replacement pistons should be stamped on top their overbore, i.e. 030.

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1 hour ago, DCJ said:

I have not, no, but I'm not entirely sure what it should come out to either. I do NOT have much of a machining background at all. I can take the measurements, but I'm not sure what to measure, or what those metrics  need to reflect.

In this case,you will be measuring the outside diameter of the cranshaft bearing surfaces. For that you will need an "outside" micrometer and "standard" which is used to set the mircometer to insure accurate measurements.

 

BTW,they won't be "metrics". They will be inch readings. Get a Motors Auto Repair Manual that covers the 1949,and it will tell you everything you need to know about measurements,ranges,and how to make them. Best damn money you will ever spend when it comes to old cars.

Quote

 

I'll be hunting down a gauge tomorrow to add to the collection, but I was hoping to find a gauge for the bore as well, not sure what to go searching for.

Nope. "Micrometers",not gauges. Buy them in inch standard,not metric.

 

Ok,there are two ways to  go here. One is with an inside micrometer,and the other is with an adjustable bore gauge to be used with an outside micrometer of the approrpraite size. Either way,it starts to get a little pricey when you start buying inside mics with that kind of range. Especially when you consider you will probably never use them again.

 

And good luck finding used ones.

 

 

Quote

 

I also get a very, very strong sense that this motor has been 'rebuilt' before. there are numerous bright-blue gaskets all over the place, definitely modern, and they go all the way down to the deepest parts of this motor. I do not think that the pistons are original, and I don't know if it's been bored in the past, because I really don't know how to tell, or what to look for. 

Ok,that is another barrel of snakes,and a very important one. Get the numbers that are stamped on the raised pad of the engine block,and post there here som someone can correctly indentify the engine and cubic inch displacement for you. You don't want to spent a lot of money buying parts that won't fit your engine. In FACT,do not buy ANY internal engine parts yet because you don't know what you will need.

Quote

 

THere's mis-matched bolts and whatnot all over the place as well. I'm definitely not impressed so far with the general quality of the build at this point. 

 

There's a bracket of some sort on the camshaft where it meets the timing chain sprocket... It looks like someone might have stripped out the original bolt that went into it... Then attempted to tap it and thread a larger bolt in (they accomplished that), but it weakened that end of the bracket so much that it cracked off (see above pictures).

 

 

My best advise to you is to spend NO money on speciality items like micrometers at this time. You don't know how to use them,and if you did use them,you don't know enough about it to understand what you need to do with the readings you get. Instead,find a reputable machine shop that rebuilds engines in your local area,and take your engine to them,drop it off,and tell you you want a list of the repairs it needs including parts and labor,as well as an estimate on when the work would be completed. This is not rocket science,but it is kinda "inside baseball" stuff,and you can waste a ton of money and still end up with junk if you don't know what you are doing. After all,why waste a couple of hundred bucks on specialty tools and gauges if you probably never use them again,and you can spend that money buying new parts or paying for professional machinging services instead? 

 

If you do want to learn this stuff,get the car you own now running up and down the road safely and reliably,and THEN buy another old car as a "hobby/project car" to mess around with and learn on. While you are doing that,you will have THIS car up and running to enjoy and inspire you!

 

Do NOT let yourself get overpowered and bogged down in details you don't understad,and risk losing interest to the point the car never gets back on the road again. I have seen that happen doezens of times. Get one old car fixed and driving so you can enjoy it,and THEN get a project car you can learn to fix cars on.

Edited by knuckleharley
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Special tools are required to measure engine parts for wear. If you want to do it yourself. A snap-T gauge works with an outside micrometer to measure bore size. An outside micrometer will also measure crank main and rod surface sizes. A dial bore gauge is required to measure cylinder taper and out of round. Valve guides are $4 each at Andy Bernbaum. 
 

If you’ll only do this once, you may just want to let the machine shop measure all and advise. In my opinion the new learning is fun and worth the tools, so I bought them over a period of several years. 
 

Did you measure the stroke to verify engine size? When you pull your tappets keep them in order and position. If you plan to reuse them they should match their cam lobe positions. 
 

If you’re planning a proper rebuild with machining you’ll have to decide if it’s worth reusing several parts or not. I figured if I’m in that far, I’ve spent all the money on machining, I decided to order some questionable parts. Thats just me. Do what fits your budget. 

I just ordered my parts around xmas. From Vintage Power Wagons. Including new:

 

pistons and rings

piston pin bushings

cam bushings

both timing gears and new chain

all valves and guides

main and rod bearings

block plugs
head bolts 

all gaskets and seals

Edited by keithb7
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1 hour ago, DCJ said:

I have not, no, but I'm not entirely sure what it should come out to either. I do NOT have much of a machining background at all. I can take the measurements, but I'm not sure what to measure, or what those metrics need to reflect. I'll be hunting down a gauge tomorrow to add to the collection, but I was hoping to find a gauge for the bore as well, not sure what to go searching for.

 

I also get a very, very strong sense that this motor has been 'rebuilt' before. there are numerous bright-blue gaskets all over the place, definitely modern, and they go all the way down to the deepest parts of this motor. I do not think that the pistons are original, and I don't know if it's been bored in the past, because I really don't know how to tell, or what to look for. 

 

THere's mis-matched bolts and whatnot all over the place as well. I'm definitely not impressed so far with the general quality of the build at this point. 

 

There's a bracket of some sort on the camshaft where it meets the timing chain sprocket... It looks like someone might have stripped out the original bolt that went into it... Then attempted to tap it and thread a larger bolt in (they accomplished that), but it weakened that end of the bracket so much that it cracked off (see above pictures).

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DCJ said:

 

 

 

Sorry, I actually did NOT attach that picture...

Well,yeah,ya did. The are lower connecting rod caps. If the bottoms look that bad,I am guessing the rod bearing surfaces on top are going to look less than wonderful,too.

1 hour ago, DCJ said:

 

Those picturesR were of the sleeves themselves, not the actual rod surface, there are no bearings underneath those that they ride on. They ride directly against the crankshaft. 

We are having a failure to communicate here. The rod bearing fit insider the rods and the bearing are what ride directly on  the crankshaft. Although looking at your,it looks like someone may have forgotten to put rod bearing in there.

1 hour ago, DCJ said:

 

In that context though... The crankshaft surfaces seem to be super smoothe, I didn't notice any scoring, or marring of any kind on any of the rod to crank meeting places. Just some weird wearing on the rod to crank sleeves (they just seem really cheap, honestly). 

More reason to get a pro-engine shop to mic the crank. Sounds like it has been turned,and without micking it,you have no idea what since "under" bearings you need to buy for it.

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1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Hope you marked the main caps before removal.

Got to put em back where they came from.

In this case it looks like they are going to have to be "line bored" this time.

 

Assuming of course there is enough metal there to bore them that far without entering another time zone.

 

I can't even begin to guess what might have cause the inner bearing surfaces on rods to get chewed up that way.

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Lots of worthwhile comments here, but IMO the last three paragraphs of knuckleharley’s long post a few up are right on. 
 

Find a friendly machine shop who will assess what you’ve got and what’s needed. Well worth the modest cost. 

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1 hour ago, JBNeal said:

I believe if ya put a torque wrench on the belt pulley nut, with the spark plugs in place, the engine should only need 40-60 ft-lbs to turn...the high torque needed sounds like a spun connecting rod bearing, which effectively wedges the connecting rod on the crankshaft.

 

As for costs of services, it varies from machine shop to shop sometimes depending on their work load...I had some head work done one year that was cheaper than my previous project as the guys were kinda slow that summer.

 

Engine specs are in the factory shop manual, so ya need to study that to get started and check a few things before ya get it down to the machine shop.  If the engine was bored, then the replacement pistons should be stamped on top their overbore, i.e. 030.

True,but with the engine being so hard to turn over,there is no guarantee the pistons are the same size as the bores. I learned a long time ago that you really can't assume anything when you are trying to put old stuff back together again.

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I imagine that the missing material from the con rod bearings might be binding things up.  Those oiling holes not lining up are probably the culprit.

 

On the back side of those bearings you might find a date stamped on them, that will tell you something.  But no doubt someone's been in there.

 

You will need to seriously clean that block to get all that missing bearing material out of it.  Might want to take the oil pump apart and look at the damage there as well.

 

As KH says, you want to check everything out as this looks to be a very poorly done job.

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8 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

In this case it looks like they are going to have to be "line bored" this time.

 

Assuming of course there is enough metal there to bore them that far without entering another time zone.

 

I can't even begin to guess what might have cause the inner bearing surfaces on rods to get chewed up that way.

Sorry, I have a few new pics that might help! With my 'metrics' comment, I actually meant the different criteria. items, not literal metric system measurements, sorry about that, I was very, very tired.

 

I hope some of these help. I'm going to call around a little and hunt down a shop today, and get a sense of what I'm looking at. 

 

With the broken part, I meant this end bracket/ flange deal at the end of this, see below (under timing chain cover).

IMG_20210121_093334.jpg.7ffa2ddd696c0e8b448455985c484e76.jpg

Also, I've already laid everything out in the order they are place. The rods all have matching numbers with the caps as well, I took pictures of their orientation.

IMG_20210121_093002.jpg.f13f0ab9a7ec6bf9a7cea00813138026.jpg

I also included a couple pictures of the bearing sleeves for the rod, and caps. There is a small depression/ cut out on each of these that hold them in the groove, they are just sort of hard to hold up and get a good shot of with one hand!

IMG_20210121_093108.jpg.9f83439e537d4ec4dfc569e6da7341c6.jpg

I also have some pictures of the various numbers on the block, but I *think the one you're looking for is D30-2I8559 (upper side of block). On the lower side of the block (near firewall), there are the numbers: 119729-6

IMG_20210121_092707.jpg.9308038d05dee5da8f4f1f1bc6d5e5b8.jpgIMG_20210121_092733.jpg.233704702e34fe82bd7a77a626d41340.jpg

I am also including a picture of this number on the head, it doesn't match anything else around it, not sure what that means, or if it even matters, I figure I can't hurt anything with more pictures!

 

IMG_20210121_093456.jpg.81ba205250a080acf68a01f3a605ef18.jpg

 

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That's the Camshaft Sprocket Hub that has a broken ear.  You can get new ones from Vintage power wagons.

 

On that rod bearing pic I think I can see a smear of that bearing material hanging over the edge, that's probably the source of your bind.

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39 minutes ago, Sniper said:

That's the Camshaft Sprocket Hub that has a broken ear.  You can get new ones from Vintage power wagons.

 

On that rod bearing pic I think I can see a smear of that bearing material hanging over the edge, that's probably the source of your bind.

Thanks! If you find one, can you send in a link to that part?

 

I also think you're right. #1, #3, and I beleive #6 had some odd spalling like this in those bearing sleeves... I can't seem to find any dates stamped on anything, and I also do not see any numbers stamped on the top of those pistons either. I do not know if the bore has been messed with.

 

First step is to get these valves and springs out. I'm off to get a spring tool, and then I'll get this guy cleaned up the best I can and ready for transport. 

 

Will a machine shop already have the specs for what all these measurements are at stock, so that they can tell me if it's been machined before, or will I need to have those numbers ready for him? Found a shop who can look at it tomorrow and tell me what's going on with it, but I want to tanke sure I'm dilligent with my information when I go as well...

 

Thanks!

 

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11 minutes ago, DCJ said:

Thanks! If you find one, can you send in a link to that part?

 

Not really, VWP's online catalog is one of those Google file files that doesn't let you link to parts.

 

So, go here https://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/online-parts-catalog

 

Click on Group 1: engine

 

Scroll down three pages (listed as page 19), middle column, third box down.  There are two possible sizes so you will need to know that.

 

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1949 DODGE MEADOWBROOK specs:

 

230.2 cubic inch engine.  Bore 3 ¼", stroke 4 ⅝".

Conn rod crank journal 2.0615 to 2.0625"

Main bearing crank journal 2.499" to 2.500"

 

All from the period correct Motors Manual. I recommend as others have, to acquire a copy for yourself.

Edited by keithb7
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