Mac McFarland Posted December 7, 2020 Report Share Posted December 7, 2020 My brother rebuilt this 34 Plymouth, and kept it as original as possible. After his passing, I received possession of it. It was running fine until one day it would not start. Either the starter would not turn over (battery was good), or when it did turn over (this was intermittent probably because of loose ignition wiring), the engine would not fire. I left it alone for about 3 years, but now want to get it running again. I bought a new 6-volt battery (it is, as you probably know, a positive ground car). When I turn the ignition switch on, and press the manual foot lever for the solenoid, nothing happens. A neighbor tested the starter and said it is good (I'd have no idea how to do that as it has a manual solenoid). There are two wires (one thicker one directly from the positive battery terminal, and a smaller one from the ignition side (I believe). But both wires are connected to ONE POST on the starter. That is what confuses me. IOW, I am clueless on how this starter is supposed to operate. Does simply turning on the ignition supply both pos and neg current to the one post, and then when I push the solenoid, it is supposed to engage the starter. I know once I get the starter to turn over, I can figure out the rest. Confused in NC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted December 7, 2020 Report Share Posted December 7, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mac McFarland said: >> There are two wires (one thicker one directly from the positive battery terminal, and a smaller one from the ignition side (I believe). But both wires are connected to ONE POST on the starter. That is what confuses me. IOW, I am clueless on how this starter is supposed to operate. << Neither of those wires are hot until you press down on the starter pedal,and complete the ground Quote Does simply turning on the ignition supply both pos and neg current to the one post, and then when I push the solenoid, it is supposed to engage the starter. No. Turning on the switch sends current to the ignition as well as the starter. Pushing down on the starter pedal grounds the current coming directly from the battery to the starter,forcing the starter to spin. When you take your foot off the starter pedal,there is no longer a complete electric circuit,so the starter stops spinning. Two separate circuits that need to work together for a (hopefully) brief moment in order to get the engine running. Once the engine is running,it gets electrical current to continue to run from the generator, If the generator is or becomes faulty,the engine will continue to run until the battery goes dead. On the other hand,once the engine is running you can take the battery out and the car will continue to run until you turn the ignition switch off,or run out of gas as long as you don't ground the battery cables. Quote I know once I get the starter to turn over, I can figure out the rest. Confused in NC. You can test the starter in your bench vise by hooking jumper cables to it from a battery. Hook the positive cable to the big post on the battery,and then "hit" the solenoid housing with the other cable to create a circuit. If the starter drive kicks in and spins the starter,you are in business. If not,you need to find out what is wrong with your starter. Edited December 7, 2020 by knuckleharley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2020 Thanks....does make sense. Will try tomorrow. So, what I think must be wrong is either the ignition switch is faulty, or the wiring to/from the switch (and ultimately to the starter) is not completing a circuit. I will try testing THAT with a MM also tomorrow, as I have already simply turned the ignition switch to ON, and pressed the foot starter pedal. And thanks, but I WAS aware that once the vehicle is running, it gets its electricity from the generator (which I believe is not the way alternators work today). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted December 7, 2020 Report Share Posted December 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, Mac McFarland said: Thanks....does make sense. Will try tomorrow. So, what I think must be wrong is either the ignition switch is faulty, or the wiring to/from the switch (and ultimately to the starter) is not completing a circuit. I will try testing THAT with a MM also tomorrow, as I have already simply turned the ignition switch to ON, and pressed the foot starter pedal. And thanks, but I WAS aware that once the vehicle is running, it gets its electricity from the generator (which I believe is not the way alternators work today). Go ahead and take the starter off and test it using your jumper cables. While you have it off,that is a good time to take it apart and maybe add new brushes,clean/polish the armature,and put new bushings in both ends. Do it now and be done with it. You will be glad you did because you will no longer have that potential break down hanging over your head. I learned the hard way a long time ago that when you are having trouble with a system to not stop after repairing or adjusting the one section you need to repair or adjust to get it working properly. All this stuff is old and age demands a price be paid. Test and service the whole damn system you are working on while you have it apart and be done with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 40 minutes ago, knuckleharley said: I learned the hard way a long time ago that when you are having trouble with a system to not stop after repairing or adjusting the one section you need to repair or adjust to get it working properly. All this stuff is old and age demands a price be paid. Test and service the whole damn system you are working on while you have it apart and be done with it. Totally agree! This is the best way to avoid trouble when out with the car. Another way to have a reliable car is to drive it regularly. It doesn’t have to be a lot of miles per year but just weekly or monthly drives when weather permits. Cars that just sit aren’t as reliable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) Just want to confirm a couple of things: You installed a new battery and, when you hit the starter foot button nothing happens? Starter does not spin around. Your starter does not have a manual solenoid. It has no solenoid. You push the starter gear into the flywheel yourself, with your foot when you push it forward. After the starter pinion gear engages the flywheel by now you are also manually activating a large button, (a switch) on the starter. This closes the electrical connection to ground and the starter should start turning. You can literally test your starter without even having the key on. Put tranny in neutral. Lean over the fender push the big starter button down with your hand. Starter will spin if working. The two wires off your starter single lug.: The big one as you mentioned is the negative battery cable. This is a positive ground system. So the battery's positive cable is directly bolted to the transmission I suspect. Which is ground. The second smaller wire from the starter lug travels into the firewall, into the cab, and up under the dash. To the ammeter. This gives live full time power to the ammeter. Then hot 6 volts travel from the ammeter to your key switch, where it ends. Until you turn your key on. Then 6V goes from the key switch to the primary side of your ignition coil. At that point the coil is hot and ready to fire a plug, once the engine starts turning over. The key does nothing else to help the engine start. That's where your foot comes in and does the work, engaging the starter. You may find something useful here. Good luck! Edited December 8, 2020 by keithb7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 @keithb7 Has the description better than your first response: 1. There is no solenoid on the car. Your foot pedal extends the starter pinion gear into the flywheel and then presses on a high current switch mounted on top of the starter to energize the starter. 2. The large cable on the switch mounted on top of the starter is directly from the battery. (This is where I connect a charger if I need to, beats removing the front seat to get at the battery.) 3. The smaller wire connected to the switch feeds power to the rest of the car by going to the hot side of the ammeter. If the starter is not turning over and your battery and battery cable are okay (cable must be a large diameter 6v cable, not a thin cable designed for 12v) then it might be the switch that is mounted on the top of the starter. That is available at your better local auto supply stores. See my parts cross reference listing or follow this link to NAPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 So if I read this right in the original post: the heavy cable going to the starter connects to the positive battery terminal. If this is a positive ground system, the cable coming from the positive battery terminal should be attached to the ground system, i.e. to the engine block. A cable from the negative battery terminal should then be connected to the large terminal on the starter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 @squirebill Hmmmm....I only ASSUMED that BOTH cables (the THICKER one coming from the Positive Terminal on the Battery, and the thinner one (leads under dash) belonged on the terminal on top of the starter (at the 'switch' which I erroneously assumed was a solenoid)). (I'm new at this.) So, YOU are saying that I need to find the bolt on the engine block where the thicker cable really belongs. I was wondering all along (see my first post) why both wires would be connected together on that starter. Tomorrow, when I get back to the project, I will search for a connection where that thicker wire belongs. About a year ago, I took the starter off, handed it to my neighbor for testing, and didn't take photos of it before removing it...if I had, I would have seen where both wires should go. SO, correct that both wires should NOT be on that terminal on top of the starter??? Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 The negative terminal on your battery should be connected with a large cable to the switch on the top of the starter. The positive terminal on your battery should be connected with a large diameter cable to one of the bolts holding the cover of your transmission. DO NOT CONNECT THE CABLE ON THE STARTER TO THE ENGINE BLOCK! Especially if the ground cable from the battery to the transmission cover is installed. There should be two wires on the switch on the starter: The big battery cable. A smaller wire going into the wiring harness eventually ending up on one of the studs on the back of the ammeter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 @TodFitch ok-quite sure that is exactly how it is connected right now. So, IF the starter is good, then simply by manually pushing the ‘switch’ by hand (with no regard to the key on/off position), the starter should turn over. I know I tried that the other day and nothing. So, maybe (as mentioned above), the switch on top of the starter is defective. Guess I have some testing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9 foot box Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 The starter switch button is adjustable, so the gear is engaged before it starts spinning. Or I’ve had a bug nest in a switch before. Mark the button, unscrew a half turn, then try the foot plunger. Unscrew it till it works. You can check the starter by depressing the button with a screw driver, without using the foot lever that engages the starter drive. That’s probably why it was intermittent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 If you havent mentioned where your negative cable (thick cable) from the battery is attached to. As explained above, if still positive ground, then negative (thick cable) from battery goes to starter and positive (thick cable) from battery goes to transmission. Or reversed if someone tried to convert to negative ground. I will repeat what Tod said - DO NOT CONNECT THE CABLE ON THE STARTER TO THE ENGINE BLOCK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Got the "DO NOT CONNECT THE CABLE ON THE STARTER TO THE ENGINE BLOCK!". Still haven't gotten to the vehicle yet (will this afternoon). But quite sure that the set up IS (unlike what I said initially): 1 thick cable from the Positive Battery Terminal to the Tranny housing; 1 thick cable from the Negative Battery Terminal to the connection post on top of the starter; and 1 thinner cable from the top of the starter into the dash (in an enclosed harness so is difficult to track (right now, that is)) if it ends at the Ammeter or not. One mentions to test the starter switch by using a screwdriver (by hand)...do I need a tool to push with, or can I simple TRY to push it by the palm of my hand? No danger, right? We're only talking 6 volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 If you can depress the button on top of the starter by hand, or with a tool, the motor should spin if everything is good. If the starter motor won't spin you may have a faulty starter switch. However, don't overlook your battery cables. A bad cable can keep current from flowing to the starter motor. Also, a poor ground on your positive cable can cause the same issues. Do you have a volt meter? Simple tests with a volt meter will show you if you are getting proper voltage to the starter motor, and if you have a proper ground connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 I've tested with voltmeter and get 6 at starter post. Will advise this afternoon/evening based upon what I do/discover. Thanks all so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 When you get a chance to test it, have your volt meter handy. If the starter won't spin when the button is pressed down, recheck the voltage at the starter lug when pressing the button. If the 6 volts remains steady it's a good indication that the switch is the problem. If the voltage drops drastically this would indicate an issue with your cables and/or connections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 So...I should be able to test without removing the starter? (I know that is a 'duh' question.) Installing this starter is not one of the easiest tasks I have performed this month. Very difficult holding with one hand while inserting the bolts with the other (I'm 70 and not quite as strong as I was in my younger days). So, TO test while in the vehicle, first ensure 6 volts to the starter lug. If so, depress the switch to see if it turns the starter. If not, watch volt meter to see if drop in voltage. If no voltage drop, then adjust (by turning) the starter switch (as described above) and try again. If still no luck, remove from vehicle, connect with battery cables and retry. Does that sound about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Yes, pushing the starter switch button without using the foot linkage should activate the motor without engaging the starter gear. If you determine that there is an issue with the starter contact switch you may be able to remove it without removing the starter. It's possible that the contacts are corroded or pitted enough to not be able to pass current. If you do end up removing the starter from the vehicle you can bench test it with a battery and jumper cables. Connect the Pos. to the mounting flange for ground and the Neg to the starter switch lug. Then active the foot linkage to test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) Well...making progress. The starter works on the bench. While it was still in the car, I got nothing when depressing the starter switch, although I had voltage to the switch terminal. I took out the floorboard to get a better picture of where the positive cable was connected to the engine/tranny...see the picture (cable removed, but bolt where it was mounted is shown). I noticed the cable had once been repaired (lots of electrical tape, and the connector nearest the engine seemed loose (on the cable not on the bolt). So, I took a jumper cable and ran it from the positive terminal to a part on the engine block. When I tried pushing in the starter, little sparks appeared where the switch housing connected to the starter (I had taken it off to clean interior and reinstalled). So, then I took the starter switch back off, and touched the negative terminal cable to the brass/copper(?) connector directly on the starter (was under the switch). The starter turned. So, I took the starter off (just for FUN????) and bench tested it with the battery, and IT works. So, I BELIEVE I have a bad Positive Ground cable. I'm not in the mood right now to put it back in the car and retry the jumper cable by-pass again (as I am quite sure the old cable is faulty). I will buy a new cable, then put it back together...BELIEVE this will solve this. Question...as the positive terminal on the battery is slightly larger than the negative one, should I be buying a negative or positive battery cable (there IS a difference, right?) I noticed this positive old cable is thicker than the one used on the negative terminal leading to the starter. In the meantime, thanks to all for the class on a simple concept...at least I am better understanding how this works. Will update once I purchase a cable and reinstall all. A picture of my starter is also attached Edited December 8, 2020 by Mac McFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Since you have a 6v system you will need both battery cable to be either 0 gage or 1 gage wire. You canget these made at a truck supply or buy online from several venders. 12 Volts battery cable are no good they are to small in size to carry the necessay current when the car is hot and to spin the engine. Get the 0 or 1 gage wire. Then you will know that you have both cables of the same size and are brand new and to at leat eliminate that part of the electrical system. Also how old is your battery? Rich Hartung 1939 desoto owner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 30 days old-battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 A tractor parts supply store will also have the thick 6 volt cables . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac McFarland Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 The cable I need is 36 inches long. I checked with TSC (Tractor Supply Company) online and they have a 48 and a 31 inch one (1-gauge) Looking online at Amazon...nothing fits. Ebay has both positive and negative ones (any lengths available), 0-gauge---the 36 inch costs $23. From their pictures, I could not tell if the clamp end for the positive is bigger than the negative (or vice-versa). I have queried the supplier, waiting a reply. The Negative cable I have (going to starter) seems to be original but in great condition (no apparent wear/issues), so only planning on purchasing one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Custom battery cables can be made by many sellers. When I google it, many options appear. Depending where you are, heavy equipment dealers may build them too. Businesses who build hydraulic hoses, often have the ability to make battery cables. The same hydraulic press used to crimp hydraulic hose fittings, has the ability to crimp battery cable ends. You could try your local Caterpillar or John Deere earthmoving and farm equipment dealer. For example a D10T bulldozer battery cable is 1/0. (24V system) They'll have the 1/0 in bulk length, cable ends too. This should be adequate! LOL. Good enough for this beast. These huge machines are a big part my day-job. Fun stuff. Edited December 9, 2020 by keithb7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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