New Member, with Handling and Drivability Questions

[Booger]

Just now, michaelmarks697@yahoo.com said:

 

you sir are a bad axx and I like your style

[mlozier76]

Change the tires to radials, that fixed 90% of my wandering issue.  I tried bias ply after removing 235/75r15s from mine and did not like the wandering.  After blowing a tube, I sent my wheels to be powdercoated and changed to radial.  Very cool ride, BTW.

[greg g]

Until this year we tended to put 3 to 4 thousand miles per season and usually included a 500 plus miles trek each summer.  With ease of replacement in mind I mounted 205 75 15 on aftermarket 5.5 inch wide rims. After the second or third year I upped the rears to 225 75 15 to reduce cruising revs ( car 46 Plym busi coupe, has a 4.11 rear end). The front tires went over 40k till the wear bars started showing. The rears with 10k fewer and still have more than half their tread depth.

 

My steering is very sloppy, I can turn the wheel probably 11 to 1 o'clock without any effect on direction.  Yep it takes more attention and correction to go down the road but it's still not as bad as the new LTD II my father in law had new back in the 70s.  It was so bad at answering the helm we nick named it

The Edmund Fitzgerald.

Edited September 24, 2020 by greg g

[keithb7]

I agree with @desoto1939. If your steering components are all in good condition, and the bias ply tires wander...This is how it was meant to be back in the day. It was all they had. My 1938 got a brand new set of bias Coker tires this spring.  It feels and drives like a stock, 1938 car. Sometimes I get surprised when the car decides to take its own path when you least expect it. The bias tires, the firm side walls, get up on the center hump of the pavement on a well traveled, worn road. Hang on and be ready! I have no fear or problem with it.  Slowing down and enjoying life in an old car is a great way to relax. 25 mph in a 1930's car can be very satisfying to many, including me.

 

In my opinion it's the same situation with the brakes. No seat belts. Mechanical fuel pump. No A/C. Hand window cranks. Vacuum wipers. 10,000 grease zerks, and more...It's all just part of the charm of driving an old car.

 

Now if your steering components are not great, king pins worn, ties rods worn, steering worm gear set out of adjustment, needs an alignment, etc...Then yes I agree something is wrong with the steering and you need to right it.

Edited September 23, 2020 by keithb7

[Jfleming]

6 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

I have a 39 desoto with Bia's ply tires yes they will wander especially on a road that has been milled for repaving.  Also you willhave to remember that when these cars were made the steering was built differently than todays cars.  In the 30-60's the roads all had a high berm to them in this I mean that the center of the road was higher than the side so it look as if the road way had a curve built into it so the road way was higher at the centerline and rolled to the right to the curb.  So with this in play the cars had to have play in the steeringbox to compensate for these berms so the wheel will  seem like a lot of play but that was part of the car.

 

My car still has the original kingpins and tie rods. I have the Goodyear 600x16 wide whitewall onthe car and it tracks perfectly down the road on a level modern road but will wnader on an older road.  So you can expect some movement in these older cars.  They do not drive like a 2020 car with rack and pinion steering that is much tighter.

 

Also radials will give you more control but and again BUT, These cars were not built to handle a radial tire configuration with the suspension system that they had when the car was produced. Yes you have independent front suspension but the modern cars are designed to use the radial tire and this tire is designed to roll instead of being flat like a bias ply tire.  This is why the AACA does not permit radial tires on a car that was not made to use radial. They feelthat the geometry of the frame and suspension can cause more damage and gives a false sense of control..

 

remember that you are now driving a car that is over 64 years old and you have to put your mind back into that time frame when driving.  They do not exceleate, stop or corner like a modern car and also do not steer the same.  So sit back get to know the car and drive it at 50-55 mph learn the particulars about your car, slow down and enjoy life instead of just speeding past everything in life. This is the beauty of an antique car.  remember as you get older your body changes, the legs do not perform like they did when you were a teenager.

 

So if you want to go over 70 mph in an old car then go get a competley rebuild Hotrod with new suspension and a super big blown motor with modern disk brakes with AC stereo and the fullblown components and go down the road as fast as you can but you will miss the most important part of life because it will have passed by you so fast.

When you get to be late 60 years old you will understand what I have written inthe above comments.  This is not to put you down but take the time to enjoy life it is very short.

 

I have owned my 39 Desoto for 32 years and I travel at 50-55 mph to enjoy the car and to be safe inthe car.

 

Rich Hartung

 

Rich,

      May I start by saying that is a beautiful Desoto! I understand what you’re saying about the road crown, here in upstate NY we still have a mix of highly crowned older roads and newer flatter ones. (The car handles poorly on both types.) And I would prefer to keep the bias tires on if I can find any other culprit, I suspect there must be because this is not possibly how it handled when anywhere near new. 
I enjoy slow cruising comfortable luxury cars of yesteryear. I have never owned or sought out any kind of sports car and I don’t care a bit for hot rods (no offense to the hot rodders, I just don’t want to drive one). All original is my liking. I am not looking to carve corners or race between red lights or go 80mph. I like my am tube radio, and my tall tires and just cruising about. I absolutely get what you’re saying and I agree 100%. I am not coming at this as a young guy expecting it to drive like a Camry. Young as I may be I drive exclusively classic, or at least vintage cars. This is my oldest yet but having put thousands of hours behind the wheel of a 1967 Chrysler I cannot believe this is how my Imperial is supposed to drive. I was in outside sales and my 67 Newport was my daily car. I have had Dodge Dodge Darts, and Ford Galaxies, Lincoln’s, and Jaguars. Often at the same time even. I have spent many enough hours at the wheel to know what to expect and from my experience limited in years as it may be, there is something wrong. I am only looking to go 50-55 but those country drives are just not relaxing or enjoyable when it takes such intense focus to keep the car on the road. 

[kencombs]

7 minutes ago, Jfleming said:

Rich,

      May I start by saying that is a beautiful Desoto! I understand what you’re saying about the road crown, here in upstate NY we still have a mix of highly crowned older roads and newer flatter ones. (The car handles poorly on both types.) And I would prefer to keep the bias tires on if I can find any other culprit, I suspect there must be because this is not possibly how it handled when anywhere near new. 
I enjoy slow cruising comfortable luxury cars of yesteryear. I have never owned or sought out any kind of sports car and I don’t care a bit for hot rods (no offense to the hot rodders, I just don’t want to drive one). All original is my liking. I am not looking to carve corners or race between red lights or go 80mph. I like my am tube radio, and my tall tires and just cruising about. I absolutely get what you’re saying and I agree 100%. I am not coming at this as a young guy expecting it to drive like a Camry. Young as I may be I drive exclusively classic, or at least vintage cars. This is my oldest yet but having put thousands of hours behind the wheel of a 1967 Chrysler I cannot believe this is how my Imperial is supposed to drive. I was in outside sales and my 67 Newport was my daily car. I have had Dodge Dodge Darts, and Ford Galaxies, Lincoln’s, and Jaguars. Often at the same time even. I have spent many enough hours at the wheel to know what to expect and from my experience limited in years as it may be, there is something wrong. I am only looking to go 50-55 but those country drives are just not relaxing or enjoyable when it takes such intense focus to keep the car on the road. 

 

Your original post states that the tires are 'a few years old'.  Depending on your definition of a few, they may need replacing in any case.  The current recommendations from all the tire makers include an age replacement caution.  I'm sure they are pessimistic in the numbers but tire failure due to age and the accompanying oxidation is a real thing.

 

I bought a little tilt cab Mitsubishi a few years ago.  Very good looking tires but 'a few years old'.  All failed withing 6 months, almost exactly one per month.  I should have just replaced them all when the first one lost its' tread, but pinched pennies.

 

Bottom line recommendation, buy a new set.  And make them radials.

[Jfleming]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

 

Thinking to myself, if I had a jeep wagoneer, I would like to have a decent set of all season tires on it.

I tried running studded snow tires in the past, they work ok ... I found that sipping the tread (thin slices in the tread) I got much better control on ice.

This is also what semi trucks do, get the tires sipped and they have better control, when required or needed they will chain up .... they do not run studded winter tires.

 

A good quality all season radial, it will have the sipping built into it. You can look at them and see it. The foot print of the tire, as it contacts the ground, flexes.

If you get on a road covered with water, they will help prevent hydroplaning.  The tread flexes and the water has a evacuation route to keep full contact with the pavement.

Same with ice, pulling up to a stop sign when road is a sheet of ice, the tires flex and grab the ice better then studded snow tires.

When I lived in Spokane WA and 72" snow fall and I worked for a tire company, I had a chance to experiment with tires and sipping is the best in my opinion.

 

All season you run year around and no need to change. Just saying, put good tires on your daily driver, move your existing tires to the hobby car, add some port a walls to them call it a day.

https://www.amazon.com/White-Tire-Wall-Portawall-Insert/dp/B07SSPFLYR/ref=pd_lpo_263_img_0/147-1999544-1403667?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07SSPFLYR&pd_rd_r=c0282404-3353-4a6c-a87f-0cb5edcfb10b&pd_rd_w=qyiZg&pd_rd_wg=XQbf9&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=WPDMYEREYGW15647ERTN&psc=1&refRID=WPDMYEREYGW15647ERTN

A bit off topic but interesting to me. I do currently have a decent set of all season tires on the wagoneer, with about 30% tread life left. Going back to last winter they were probably 50% and I was just dissatisfied with the grip. It was fine overall but not great and I frequently have to drive to work in unplowed or under-plowed conditions. I am NOT getting studded snow tires, just regular snows. A bit more “knobby” for the deep snow, and a much softer rubber compound to achieve the flexing and gripping you mention, even when it’s 0 degrees all week. 
 

If I do go with radials on the imperial I was considering portawalls. 

[Jfleming]

34 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

I agree with @desoto1939. If your steering components are all in good condition, and the bias ply tires wander...This is how it was meant to be back in the day. It was all they had. My 1938 got a brand new set of bias Coker tires this spring.  It feels and drives like a stock, 1938 car. Sometimes I get surprised when the car decides to take its own path when you least expect it. The bias tires, the firm side walls, get up on the center hump of the pavement on a well traveled, worn road. Hang on and be ready! I have no fear or problem with it.  Slowing down and enjoying life in an old car is a great way to relax. 25 mph in a 1930's car can be very satisfying to many, including me.

 

In my opinion it's the same situation with the brakes. No seat belts. Mechanical fuel pump. No A/C. Hand window cranks. Vacuum wipers. 10,000 grease zerks, and more...It's all just part of the charm of driving an old car.

 

Now if your steering components are not great, king pins worn, ties rods worn, steering worm gear set out of adjustment, needs an alignment, etc...Then yes I agree something is wrong with the steering and you need to right it.

Well now sir I’ll have you know this is a highfalluting Imperial. I have power windows, power seats, power brakes, electric wipers, automatic transmission, and terribly ponderous power steering ?

In all seriousness I have replaced the tie rod ends, aligned it and greased it. And adjusted the spur gears. I’m concerned I perhaps overtightened them and maybe I’m getting binding? I may try greasing the kingpins more as well to chase any binding. I’m really not looking for a lot it just seems like it’s driving significantly worse than just “old”

[Jfleming]

43 minutes ago, greg g said:

Until this year we fender to put 3 to 4 thousand miles per season and usually included a 500 plus miles trek each summer.  With ease of replacement in mind I mounted 205 75 15 on aftermarket 5.5 inch wide rims. After the second or third year I upped the rears to 225 75 15 to reduce cruising revs ( car 46 Plym busi coupe, has a 4.11 rear end). The front tires went over 40k till the wear bars started showing. The rears with 10k fewer and still have more than half their tread depth.

 

My steering is very sloppy, I can turn the wheel probably 11 to 1 o'clock without any effect on direction.  Yep it takes more attention and correction to go down the road but it's still not as bad as the new LTD II my father in law had new back in the 70s.  It was so bad at answering the helm we nick named it

The Edmund Fitzgerald.

It’s cool to hear how much you drive yours! And it’s significantly older than mine. If I put radials on mine 235-75-15 would fit the stock wheel. 
 

I hope the LTD didn’t meet a similar fate as its namesake!

[Los_Control]

I just wanted to add one more thing before I back out of this conversation.

I understand the purist and reasons why to run bias ply tires on these cars.

I think the alignment settings are different between a bias and radial tire. I would check that.

 

Use your mind and your own critical thinking about this issue .... I am just saying, during the day in the 60's-70's and tires were moving from bias to radial.

I bet your mother or your grandmother, depending on your age ... drove a similar car as yours with radial tires on it. Honest it wont blow up.

 

 

[plymouthcranbrook]

Well since the conversation has slid(?)a bit I will mention that on both my wife’s and daughters Kia Soul I put on a set of a relatively new tire design called All-Weather tires. These are by Nokian, whichI believe is a Finnish Corporation.  Kia Souls with original tires ace about the worst snow and ice cars I have ever driven.  Short wheelbase and light weight even with front wheel drive they sit and spin.  And stopping, forgettaboutit.  But changing the tires made a dramatic difference. Great traction and much better braking. Not cheap, one car was $750 and the other almost $700 but worth it.

[greg g]

I think 235s will fit the Imperial.  The stock tires on the Plymouth were 600 or 650s, I believe the Imp had 925s.  I had some fender rub with the 225s with  travel stuff in the trunk and a full gas tank.  New shocks and spring eye bushings cleared up 99%.  If you haven't yet you should check out the Imperial Club wedsite.  Lots of good info and a very comprehensive repair and maint section.  Welcome and good luck.

1 hour ago, Jfleming said:

It’s cool to hear how much you drive yours! And it’s significantly older than mine. If I put radials on mine 235-75-15 would fit the stock wheel. 
 

I hope the LTD didn’t meet a similar fate as its namesake!

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

I know those 1953 to 54 internal passage steering gears can cause steering issues if worn or adjusted incorrectly.

Alignment of the steering gearbox to frame and upper column to lower dash are critical.

The coupling rubber insulator (in the column cover) does fall apart and is critical to proper tight steering operation.

The MTSC conference online has all this technical info.

Those 1953-54 Chryslers did drive just fine with bias tires back in the day.....

[Jfleming]

32 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I know those 1953 to 54 internal passage steering gears can cause steering issues if worn or adjusted incorrectly.

Alignment of the steering gearbox to frame and upper column to lower dash are critical.

The coupling rubber insulator (in the column cover) does fall apart and is critical to proper tight steering operation.

The MTSC conference online has all this technical info.

Those 1953-54 Chryslers did drive just fine with bias tires back in the day.....

I’m a little confused about my steering box too. It most resembles the ones in the 1952 MTSC. I think maybe the Imperials kept the older units until their big 55 redesign?

[Dodgeb4ya]

1954 Chrysler cars had two types of P/S gear boxes.

Early type "internal oil passage" steering gear that's big, heavy cast iron..

And the later type "Coaxial" all aluminum case gear housing as used in all Chryslers thru the later 50's.

Pic's showing all...

[Jfleming]

10 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

1954 Chrysler cars had two types of P/S gear boxes.

Early type "internal oil passage" steering gear that's big, heavy cast iron..

And the later type "Coaxial" all aluminum case gear housing as used in all Chryslers thru the later 50's.

Pic's showing all...

Interesting! Having examined mine, I was very much wrong about it. It IS the coaxial unit. I’m not sure why I was so confident it wasn’t. That changes my research and troubleshooting significantly 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Jfleming
Update

[blucarsdn]

You mentioned in your initial comments that the steering wheel has a lot of play. This could indicate that the steering gears are bad, needing replacement and/or adjustment. Get rid of the old hard tires, replace them with good radials inflated to 32/35 psi..The wheels you have are 15" so you can buy good tires off of the shelf in lieu of going to the pricey after-market vendors.

The big problem is most likely the power steering. Chrysler PS was terrible for many years, it was 'full time' which made the cars very sloppy on the road, Ford had the same problem through the late '60's. A high school classmate of mine, a girl, was driving her fathers new 54 Chrysler with two of her friends, the girl lost control of the car, excessive speed, killed the two friends and made her an invalid for the rest of her life. wm.  

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Chrysler early 50's power steering was definitely over assisted....one hand palm steering.

The 54 and later Coaxial was a big improvement though still light touch.

I've installed several in Imperials and 300's and when rebuilt right...installed right they work and feel nice and safe. Still moderately light touch.

A good alignment is the other 1/2 of a good handling 50's MoPar.

Hard to find a shop who can set up the front end on one of our old cars these days.

[rallyace]

Having put more than a few miles on my 51 Plymouth in your area, I can attest for radials making a big difference on the roads that are always in need of repair. I have not played with the 50's vintage Mopar power steering units but on any old PS system flushing out the old oil is always a good idea. Flush it through and old T-shirt so you can see how much crap is in the system. If you get a lot out, keep flushing it. The crap will get into the orifaces in the unit and cause issues. A power steering unit relies on back pressure to stop the assisted forces so anything that upsets that equilibrium will cause problems.  I had an old Dodge van that you had to counter steer to stop the assist or it would keep turning. Flushing the system fixed the problem.

 

[Jfleming]

I wanted to check back in with some updates! I’ve been combining advice from this thread, especially after learning I did in fact have the coaxial unit, as well as other threads on the topic, and advice in the MTSC books on the topic. So far I have replaced about half of the power steering fluid with new and thicker oil, this has helped with the moaning. I also employed a trick I read both here and the MTSC: I set the left tire dead straight, but the right one to toe in about 1/16” to help overcome the tendency to pull right on crowned roads. I also set the tires on the passenger side about 1/2-1 PSI higher than the drivers to further that effect. I’m running the factory recommend 24 PSI. I was running 27 before. 
This has all made a marked difference so far! I’m still getting what feels like binding as everything gets truly hot so my next steps are to redo the steering gear adjustment (I think it’s too tight) and grease my king pins a lot (with the wheels off the ground, I hear that’s critical)

There is definitely improvement though. 40-45 used to be the fastest that felt reasonable, I can go a bit over 50 confidently now. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Jfleming

[blucarsdn]

If  you are running 24 psi in your tires you are running them under inflated.. When you follow the factory spec's for inflation you have to understand what is at play. The factory recommended tire pressure is intended to give a soft comfortable ride in city driving. As a general rule if you read the entire section about tire inflation, it will generally state that the pressure should be increased for load, road conditions and highway speed. The tire manufactures suggested pressure is always higher because they are more concerned with safety and tread life.. wm.

[Jfleming]

37 minutes ago, blucarsdn said:

If  you are running 24 psi in your tires you are running them under inflated.. When you follow the factory spec's for inflation you have to understand what is at play. The factory recommended tire pressure is intended to give a soft comfortable ride in city driving. As a general rule if you read the entire section about tire inflation, it will generally state that the pressure should be increased for load, road conditions and highway speed. The tire manufactures suggested pressure is always higher because they are more concerned with safety and tread life.. wm.

Well that may be but it has improved my ride quality and handling. I’m running factory size bias ply tires, I see no reason not I follow factory pressure specs. I’m not particularly concerned with tread wear. The book does state what the warm pressures should be as well. To be clear I did mea 24 cold

Edited September 25, 2020 by Jfleming

[blucarsdn]

Under inflated tires shortens the tread life, scrubs the shoulders off of the tires. Proper inflation helps to maintain correct contact of the tire to the road, especially on a heavy car like a Chrysler. The air pressure in the tire is the coolant for the tire, under inflated tires will run hot. Tire press should always be checked cold.

I have radial tires on my .'39 Plym conv cpe, P215/65R15 on 7" rims, I run 34 # in the tires, front/rear. The car drives perfectly at 70 mph +. I have done extensive improvements to the suspension, and powertrain. wm.

[Plymouthy Adams]

with your improvements and ability to drive at speed and handle you are driving your car in said manner and that is a GOOD thing...the very odds this other person will run past 55 is not likely, many do not care for the 'busy' sound from the engine at these speeds and greater.....to corner at speed...also an unlikely scenario.  He is tweaking his car to suit his driving habits and that he is about tuned in we should all be happy for him if he is happy....cost of tires to some is the same as a throw away water bottle...just part of a daily routine.

[Sam Buchanan]

Proper tire pressure is a function of the load each tire is supporting.

 

I had a Lotus Seven semi-clone (StalkerV6) with 205/50-15 tires. The proper pressure for those tires considering the weight of the car (1500lbs) was 17 psi cold, any additional pressure would decrease the contact patch. My 2300lb TR6 with 205/70-15 tires runs 24 psi cold, and the 3200lb P15 with H78-15 bias ply tires works great with 27psi cold.

 

One size does not fit all.........   ?