Jump to content

supply line/return for heavy duty oil filter


Recommended Posts

Need to know how to plumb the oil filter pictured below on my 41 Plymouth pickup-PT 125. Pressurized oil ports run along the raised part of block and return is just above oil pressure relief valve.  photo shows how I have plumbed-the upper port-pressurized-to the upper connection to filter and the lower port-return-to the bottom of the filter. I believe this to be backwards as the as the legend of filter diagram shows oil filter to engine connecting to upper connection on filter and the engine to oil filter connecting to bottom of filter. Posted on the 39-47 dodge site and not really definitive answer and thought I would limit the inquiry to installation of this filter. Thanks in advance. 

Rod  

_Oil filter diagram 1.jpg

IMG_1595.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is my understanding that the filter has pressurized oil fed through the center tube outwards, where heavier particles settle in the bottom of the housing to form a sludge to be cleaned out periodically...this outward pressure forces the filter against the housing uniformly...return oil port is on the side back towards the block bypass valve...

 

If ya can visualize the assembly of the exploded view, you can see that the oil line going to the top port extends below the oil line going to the bottom port :cool:

Edited by JBNeal
added information
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Deluxe Filter that I have is stamped "IN" and "OUT" next to the ports, and it is plumbed with the pressure feed into the bottom (IN) and the return to sump (OUT) at the upper side. Some other types of filters, primarily the pleated filter cartridge type (from what I've seen), have an outside-in filtering process. In these types the pressure inlet is at the upper side of the canister and the return to sump is at the bottom. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This may clear thing's up or confuse them further?  Pictured below is an OEM 230 crate motor direct from Chrysler.  I removed it from the crate myself. It's never been run or worked on. It was manufactured in 1967. The pressure hose coming from the galley goes to the side of the filter housing. The return line goes from the bottom of the filter housing to the return fitting near the dip stick hole. My 1939 PT81 is plumbed the same, but I did that 30 years ago. It's likely that when I made new lines, I copied what was on there. Can't say for sure now though. Alzheimer's is setting in. ?

DSCN2634.JPG

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been stewing on this for awhile and cannot think of a good reason that fluid direction through the filtering media makes any difference here as these are not full flow systems, especially the sock filter...thinking about all of the stories that I've heard where a roll of toilet paper was substituted for the correct sock filter kinda backs up this thinking...the perforated dome appears to hold the filter in place and appears to act as a splash dampener for both directions of flow...so as long as the correct filter is in place and the lid is screwed down adequately and the sealing gaskets are in good shape, either direction should work :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

I've been stewing on this for awhile and cannot think of a good reason that fluid direction through the filtering media makes any difference here as these are not full flow systems, especially the sock filter...thinking about all of the stories that I've heard where a roll of toilet paper was substituted for the correct sock filter kinda backs up this thinking...the perforated dome appears to hold the filter in place and appears to act as a splash dampener for both directions of flow...so as long as the correct filter is in place and the lid is screwed down adequately and the sealing gaskets are in good shape, either direction should work :cool:

 

OK, stew on this... On the sock type with a perforated dome under the lid, as you referenced, the pressure enters the center post, through a couple holes in the side of the post, and migrates through the filter media. It then collects above the perforated dome where it can drain back to the sump. I’m sure the filter media could be just as efficient in reverse, but the flow of oil may not be as efficient in reverse. That, and the cover gasket would be under constant pressure vs. being on the low pressure return side. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While you guys were "stewing" I was wondering if mine was a sock type, so I took the lid off and it's not. This engine was military surplus and everything on it was deemed heavy duty? Perhaps by the time this engine was manufactured they no longer used the sock type? It would be good to know if there were different flow directions for different filter units?

DSCN2636.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were a few different filter suppliers back in the day. What you have there appears correct for that type. That upper port is clearly marked “INLET”, and as you stated earlier it is connected to the pressure gallery. I believe I can read Purolator on the label and it clearly uses a different element than the sock type that Deluxe uses.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

OK, stew on this... On the sock type with a perforated dome under the lid, as you referenced, the pressure enters the center post, through a couple holes in the side of the post, and migrates through the filter media. It then collects above the perforated dome where it can drain back to the sump. I’m sure the filter media could be just as efficient in reverse, but the flow of oil may not be as efficient in reverse. That, and the cover gasket would be under constant pressure vs. being on the low pressure return side. 

 

Actually how a filter is designed can make a difference on how it performs.  As stated here someplace, pleated filters generally are deigned to filter out to in.  Depth filters (kinda what the sock filter is) GENERALLY also work out to in.  BUT CAN be run the opposite direction.  It all comes down to the physics of the situation.  Basically as you pressurize the outside of the filter it will compress to the core, and at some point it will plug.  The core is generally designed with some sort of material (plastic/metal) keep it from collapsing into a ball of goo.  Pressurizing IN to OUT will force the filter as it loads towards the housing container and eventually it will expand to fill all available space as it plugs up and "grows".  This can make it nearly impossible to remove.  How filters are made (in this case depth filters) it is generally way more easier to create a graduated filter by having looser material on the outside and as you work towards the core, denser material to catch finer particles.  This allows the filter to work longer and more effectively.  Conversely, if you pressurize the crore you have way less control over how the filter will react as it loads as it will EXPAND, OPENING up channels for debris to pass THRU the filter completely (filter bypass).   This information is directly gained from years as a test engineer/filter designer for a filtration company making filters for pharmaceuticals, potable water, semiconductor industry and the like in the mid 90's.  I won't speak for the logic used in the 50's when these parts were designed, but that is how modern filters are designed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read posts which state the Purolator filters are different than the "bypass" filters which is referred to as the Heavy duty oil filter diagram  attached to original post. The crate engine as well as the attached drawing to this post is a purolator filter. The "input" for the crate engine and diagram below are identified as the upper connection to filter with the return/output being at the bottom of the filter.  Clearly the "bypass" filter shows the return from location towards top of filter and pressure port connected to bottom of filter-the feed for the oil. What I can't figure out is the difference in function/operation of the filter if the source of feed/input is switched/backwards. Does it really make a difference  insofar as efficiency or operation.  Not sure I understand explanation of sock vs pleated filter but would assume there is a difference associated with different media and the source of pressure port/ input. Appreciate the discussion and helping me understand the application and operation. 

 

20190414_173216.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sock filters are basically layered cotton fabric of a thread count that allows most fluid through but catches most particulate contamination...modern pleated filters are made of a paper porous enough to emulate the sock filter, but are cheaper to produce.  The media itself works independent of fluid flow.  In the bypass flow systems, fluid flow varies with operation of the bypass valve, so not all fluid is filtered during lubrication...in full flow systems, all fluid is filtered at system pressure during lubrication.  Typically, gasoline engines with bypass oil filtration are less susceptible to the effects of contamination than modern engines with full flow filtration, as modern engines have much tighter tolerances and operate at higher rpms.  For flatheads, oil filters were optional, which gives ya an idea of how clean oil needed to be to operate...kinda like push mowers that ya only change the oil every spring :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe not a help but a picture of my 230 ,bottom hole is input other is output on filter housing,which in turn output connects to bottom hole on block ,with input being the block hole right above it

 

image.jpg,

Edited by Ooobie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dozerman51 said:

KOn your 1967 crate motor, does the stamped pad say T-214. If so, that is a replacement motor for a WWII 3/4 ton WC truck. I routed my oil filter lines just like your motor. The canister itself is a Purolator Military Standard. 

Yes! you are correct. It "almost" seemed sacrilegious to not put it in a WC. 

DSCN2433.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

Keep in mind that many of these old Mopars have had after market oil filters put on at some point. Each manufacturer plumbed them their own way, so there is no universal right or wrong on how to install the tubing.

 

I had my '39 Plymouth for a year or so before I pulled the oil filter canister to give it a good cleaning. It was covered with oil grunge and road dirt. I found that under all the dirt the inlet and outlet were marked, stamped in the metal. A former owner had installed the tubing backwards. The bottom of the canister had an inch or two or sludge. I cleaned the filter, painted it, and installed the tubing correctly. From then on when I pulled the dip stick, the oil looked much cleaner, much longer. So I'd say it matters how the the filter is plumbed.

 

Pete

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

This topic was discussed a few months ago, and Bob (Dodgeb4ya) posted this image that shows that the Purolator and AC filters work from outside-in, whereas the Wix and Deluxe units  filter from inside-out. 

 

 

 

 

i don't see a distinction in that image that one or the other is for a specific brand of filter.  the only thing i see is a distinction in the location of the inlet and outlet passages of the filter housing.  both "pathways" appear to show that the oil is filtered from the "inside to the outside" if one follows the arrows depicting flow direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know a couple guys running flat-heads (one being a Ford V8) without any oil filters at all. They have been running this way for many years without issue. My friend with the ford has over 150,000 miles. Now, they do keep up on oil changes, but makes one wonder how effective our partial flow filters are? On the other hand, I believe Chrysler included them on many of their vehicles and I doubt they would have done so if they were ineffective? I'm thinking the modern oils having chemicals to keep contaminants in suspension it might be better to have one? I must admit though, I've thought of removing mine, thinking it would simplify the engine bay and less places to leak. Any thoughts about not running one? Anyone on here not running one? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I have a 1939 Plymouth P8 that has a filter. I know that these came with a filter from the factory. I also have a 1938 Dodge Brothers pickup. It has never had a filter -- it was an option and is not listed on the build card.

 

The oil in the Plymouth stays very clean, at least from looking at the dip stick. The oil in the pickup turns much darker and dirtier after not too many miles. I also cleaned a lot of sludge out of the oil pan a few years ago. I change the oil pretty often. I have a used filter to put on it when I get the chance.

 

Pete

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/2/2020 at 9:48 AM, Pete said:

Hi all,

 

I have a 1939 Plymouth P8 that has a filter. I know that these came with a filter from the factory. I also have a 1938 Dodge Brothers pickup. It has never had a filter -- it was an option and is not listed on the build card.

 

The oil in the Plymouth stays very clean, at least from looking at the dip stick. The oil in the pickup turns much darker and dirtier after not too many miles. I also cleaned a lot of sludge out of the oil pan a few years ago. I change the oil pretty often. I have a used filter to put on it when I get the chance.

 

Pete

 

 

Pete, did you rebuild or know the history of your engines?  I'm thinking you would have to compare two fresh engines, one with filter and one without to get a good comparison? If one of your engines had less maintenance in it's past, it's likely the oil would get dirtier faster due to deposits in the crankcase. The fella I know with the Ford flat head (he rebuilt) without oil filter stays very clean. He does drive the truck routinely and changes oil religiously at 3000 miles. If the sludge you removed from your 38 truck was in an engine that you have had since it was fresh, that would be a good argument for keeping filters in our vehicles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both engines were professionally rebuilt under my ownership, the P8 fairly recently and the pickup about 15K miles ago. The pickup's oil pan was dropped and cleaned about 2K ago, and the crankcase deposits should be minimal. I change the oil in both vehicles at 3K or less. I run straight 30 weight, non-detergent oil in the pickup, and Rotella T4 non-synthetic 15w-40 in the P8. I've read and heard that if you are not running an oil filter you should not use detergent oil. If you want to get into the details I recommend the book, "Which Oil?". It gives a lot of background on oil and which additives were added or removed over time (and why), and gives examples of which oil to run in which period cars.

 

Pete

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Terms of Use