1949 royal starter died?

[Jeff I indu]

Pulled the car out to do some cleanup today. First time I turned the key nothing. Second time it turned over as normal and pulled it out of the garage. Now I turn the key to the start position and get nothing. Battery is charged and when I turn the key the lights dont dim at all but no click, no nothing. Got the tester light and of course hot at the battery terminal of the starter and not the other 3 terminals. Key to on position and same thing. Only hot at the main battery terminal on the solenoid.  Wife turns the key to start position and the upper right terminal is now hot but nothing is happening. I did pressure wash the engine a few days ago and maybe got the solenoid wet but it still started. Anyhow I assume I have a starter/solenoid issue. Is there any way to jump the terminals to maybe bypass the solenoid to get it to start and put it back in the garage. I used to cross solenoid terminals years ago but they were always on the firewall. Not sure what to cross on this engine. Picture of solinood attached

Jeff

 

 

[50mech]

Jump the two large posts to spin the starter.

 

[Jeff I indu]

Jumped them, starter spins but does not engage. The solenoid is not kicking out. Any options? If I pull the starter tomorrow morning, can the solenoid be taken apart and cleaned/ dried? Just not used to this type of starter. Haven't seen a solenoid on a starter since I was a kid and I am 61 now

 

Jeff

[50mech]

You can try jumping all three except upper left sometimes the extra current will kick it out even when it won't from the ign wire.

[Jeff I indu]

Just turned the key and it fired right up. I dont know. I did pressure wash it a few days ago and maybe it's just moisture trapped in the solenoid. Going to drive it a few miles, then park it in the garage. Over the next few days I will see if it is intermittent or something that requires replacement. Maybe clean all my connections tomorrow. Thank for advice

 

Jeff

 

[50mech]

I'd guess more likely that ign wire.... doesn't look too good.

[Los_Control]

In a off topic thread I had a similar issue with a small block chevy and daily driver truck. The consensus was, no click and when turning the key the dash gauges / lights did not dim.

If the solenoid or starter was bad, you would get the click and the dash lights would dim with the power draw.

You do not get that, seems like a bad wire or cable or something else ... my case above I think is ignition switch going bad.

 

Story time ... I once had a 1987 Bronco with a pretty healthy engine, headers, cam, high rise 4 barrel. new to me I just bought it. 

I took it on a road trip across state, I pulled into a gas station Sunday afternoon and it would not start again.  Kind people offered help and a jump, I got nothing.

I slept in the Bronco that night, Monday morning I walked a mile & took my starter to the auto parts store and bought a new one. Put it in and exact same issue ... nothing.

Long story short, The cable from the ford solenoid to the starter was bad ... even though it looked fine. Some smart gentleman saw my dilemma, and worked with me.

We figured out, I could use my jumper cables from my solenoid to the starter, and it would start ... the cable was bad.

 

I had to do that trick a couple of times while I got to my destination, then replaced it before going back home ... but visually, I was looking at the old cable for the issue when I had it removed ... it looked perfect.  But for some reason the cable would not carry the current needed to operate the starter.

 

Go with your gut feeling, you have wires that look questionable, change them ... you have some you have no history on, might not hurt to change them also.

 

 

[Hickory]

I just had this problem with my 49royal. I removed the solenoid cover and used a test light to follow the path of power. I found power at the top of the contacts but not going to the bottom. So I cleaned the contacts and still nothing.  There was a small gap in the contacts from years of cleaning, so I bent the lower contacts upward and all better. This was an intermittent issue that was heat related. Hope this helps

[Dodgeb4ya]

The starter relay get's it's ground through the generator armature.

Possibly after cleaning the engine the commutator is dirty preventing a ground path for the starter relay.

To bypass the IGN SW. and also the armature ground circuit..(hot wiring the starter)

Using two jumper wires...

*Ground the solenoid small top wire stud closest to the block

* Momentarily connect (hot) 6 volts to the upper outer small wire stud...

Starter should immediately  crank over when you touch the hot jumper to this stud....engine will not start up unless you turn the key on too.

[Jeff I indu]

Took it for a drive last night once it finally started. Fluidrive transmission shifted normally for about a mile. Then after a stop it would no longer shift into the high range. Brought it home and parked it in the garage. Today tried turning the key a few times and nothing. I believe both problems are related as the shift is controlled by the electric solenoid on the transmission and I obviously have a electrical break somewhere. Tomorrow I plan on pulling the starter and checking all my contacts. To bench test the starter out of the car I assume I can use a pair of jumper cables. Positive side of battery and clip anywhere on the starter to ground. Negative side of battery to lower right terminal as it is in the car. Then use a hot jumper to upper right terminal of solenoid to mimic the ignition switch key being turned to the start position. Initially I would expect the solenoid to not work and after inspection, cleaning or whatever i find that it will operate as normal. Is this the proper way to bench test the starter out of the car? I am hoping my shifting issue will disappear once I get the starter working properly again

 

Jeff

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Post #9  is how to test the starter in the car bypassing what's necessary.

Done it way too many times on too many 1941 to 50 Chryslers.

[dpollo]

pay heed to what Dodge b4ya told you about the grounding through the generator.  Bad generator brushes can cause the starter to be inoperative.

 

the reason for this odd way of wiring the starter is to prevent engagement while the engine is running.  Simple but fiendish !

[Jeff I indu]

This problem is intermittent. Saturday it failed to start at least 10 times. Got some alligator clips and wire and went out Sunday to work on it. Fired right up. Drove it down the road and it shifted fine. Started in the garage at least 10 more times on sunday without issue. Today the starter would not start. Did as dodgeb4ya said and grounded the upper left terminal while applying a hot jumper to the upper right. Still nothing. Verified with a idiot light my hot wire was hot and the ground verified. Crossed the two big lugs at the bottom and the starter turnd but gear does not kick out.  So I pulled the starter and cleaned and inspected it. I removed the solinoid cover and I did find moisture and gunk from pressure washing it. Pulled the starter cover back a inch and inspected it. There are commuter bar is shiny with some light scratches on it. The brushes I would say are worn but didn't measure their length. Hooked a old battery cable up to the main lug and used a jumper cable to the ear of the starter. Used a hot wire to the upper right terminal and still nothing. Crossed the two bottom lugs and the starter spins but the pinion does  not kick out. Seems like I need to get the contacts in the solinoid to close. If bad brushes or grounding issue why does the starter turn when I cross the two bottom lugs? 

 Book says if points still do not close when starting switch key is turned (in this case my hot wire) defective wiring in ground circuit, poor brush condition in generator or a faulty relay coil is indicated. 

Since the starter turns when I cross the two main lugs would that mean the brushs and ground circuit are functioning and the relay coil in the solinoid is not functioning? Or maybe its time to take it to a rebuild shop where they can test the commutator bar and replace the brushes. 

 

 

[Hickory]

On the solenoid right behind the upper right terminal there are two contacts, when energized power should be on both sides of those contacts, if not clean them and check again if not then bend the lower one up a little and recheck

[Hickory]

You can also close the contacts manually with power applied the see off it works

[50mech]

The upper left terminal needs a ground when hot is applied to the upper right in order to kick out the solenoid.

 

I think your intermittent issue has more to do with the generator as @Dodgeb4ya was saying. Probably a bad spot in it's commutator or sticking brush preventing the solenoid from energizing when it happens to land there when shut down.

 

If it still clicks but doesn't spin when installed, it's more likely what hickory is saying.

Edited August 10, 2020 by 50mech

[Jeff I indu]

Hickory

Did what you said and bent the contacts a little closer and still nothing. Pushed the contacts manually and nothing. However when I hit the lower contact with power the solinoid energized and it kicked out and the starter turned as it should. But going to go back out and ground the upper right terminal per 50mech and see what happens. I did not have it grounded at all today so maybe that's the missing piece

 

Jeff

[Jeff I indu]

Just grounded the upper left to the battery as well as using a jumper cable from the battery to the ear of the starter. Nothing happens. I am thinking the starter relay is bad since when I hit a hot wire to the lower contact the solinoid engages and the starter spins. Manually touching the contacts together does nothing. I did pressure wash the engine last week and know I hit the starter/solinoid hard. There was still moisture under the solinoid cover when I inspected today. Maybe fried the little coil

 In the relay. At least that is what I am now suspecting. I see them on Ebay for about 90 bucks. I wont be pressure washing this engine again.

 

 

Jeff

 

 

[Hickory]

Did you happen to use a test light or volt meter to see if the power is going to the contacts and through them, a couple of the wires inside the solenoid are soldered, I wonder if one came loose. I also would try moving the Bendix lever on the other end of the solenoid by hand. It should energized the starter if power is hooked up. Make sure it moves freely with some spring tension against it. It shouldn't feel sticky. There will be spring tension but it shouldn't hang up.

[Jeff I indu]

Hickory

 

Took another look and probed with a test light. I see no loose wires. However this time I did notice that when I have a hot wire on the small ignition post and pushed lightly on top of the contacts they did jump together. When you remove the hot wire from the small post the spring pulls them back apart. Reattach the hot wire and the contacts will not touch without a gentle push down. It's as if the coil in the relay does not have the strength to pull the contacts together without a little help. Still thinking I got it wet and something bad happened to the relay

Picture shows where I bent the bottom contact a bit, hooked up the hot wire and gave the top contact a push. Then they stuck together but nothing happened. But if I hit the hot wire on the bottom contact,(top in the picture) pinion kicks out and starter spins as it should

Jeff

 

[50mech]

Ok just to verify. You have hot connected to the lower right terminal. Ear grounded. Upper left grounded. Now jumper hot also to the upper right.

 

Is this what you are doing?

Edited August 10, 2020 by 50mech

[Jeff I indu]

Yes, exactly. 

[50mech]

So yeah, solenoid coil is weak.

[Hickory]

Did this ever get resolved

[Jeff I indu]

Yes, ordered the starter solinoid relay off ebay for 90 dollars delivered and put it on yesterday. Bench tested it, worked perfect and no issues. Installed it and cranked it several times yesterday with no problem and drove it for 50 miles today with no issues. As always thanks for all the advise and direction on this site and I wont be pressure washing this engine again

Jeff