anils50 Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) HI guys, Need help to determine the problem.... kind of baffled and unable to pin point the issue below: About car: 1952 Dodge coronet, Flat six cyl. 230 230 cu in (3.8 L) 103hp, 2 speed Gyromatic or Fluid drive. Problem: It is an intermittent problem. Unable to start, I can crank the engine but it does not fire. Problem history: Car does run but give me hard time start. for example I had the car running yesterday and must have drove about 10 miles came back home parked on the driveway and that was it. Unable to start again. This has happen multiple time in past. I can crank the engine but engine does not fire. Last time with this problem I found issues with the spark plug solid core wires and wires were replaced few years ago. Noticed one of the wire has spark leak so decided to replace all solid core wires once again. Problem was fixed for couple of days but again I drove the card yesterday for 10 miles or so, came back, parked the car and same symptoms and unable to fire the engine. Checked all distributor wires, and spark plugs are fine - they are not wet or engine seems flooded, spark plug wires are all connected firmly. Replaced distributor cap, and rotor but no difference. I have not replace the points but the is my next action... One think I did notice that I have a low compression 75-80 lbs on all cylinder when this car should have about 105 lbs Do you think the problem could be related with the missing heat shield that goes under the manifold intake ? Someone was saying when car gets heated, without the heat shield it evaporate fuel in the carburetor and that may cause problem firing engine. The reason I don not think heat shield an issue because I am unable to start cold engine as well. It just cranks without firing the engine. Any help is appreciated. thx Edited July 17, 2020 by anils50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Reddie Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Hello and welcome. One thing that I have done when having a no start situation like you describe is to remove the air cleaner and while looking down into the carburetor, work the accelerator linkage back and forth. You should see a squirt of fuel each time. If you do then the problem leans toward electrical. If no fuel spray is observed then fuel pump or restricted lines is often the case. Whatever you find, good luck to you. John R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Check the wire to the points in the distributor. A break internally may not be visible but can cause this as contact can be intermittent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Listening to your symptoms, there are clues. It would appear that after things get good and hot, the problems occur. When you say it won’t start, if you could give us a little more info it might help us, help you. Do you get home, safe in the driveway then shut off the engine, and immediately it won’t re-start? Or do you leave it sit for 15 minutes, then it won’t restart? Pulling the air filter and looking down the carb when it won’t restart is excellent advice. You are lookIng for fuel from the accelerator pump. Or at the least a fog-mist of fuel down deep In the carb venturi. A screw driver and a flash light are beneficial to see down there. The problems with fuel delivery are so common among us, it would seem that a fuel pressure gauge mounted in the cab would be a huge benefit to so many. Taking fuel pressure measurements just before delivery to the carb bowl inlet could immediately let us know whats going on with pressure. Due to either vapor lock, mechanical fuel pump pressures, electric fuel pump pressures, tank pickup screen blockages, pin holes in fuel lines, plugged fuel filters, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 the fuel could be an issue but is often more related to percolation than no fuel at all....this occurs when the float level is set too high and too high could well be on the money given the expansion rate of our modern fuel. If you look into the carb throat and see lots of fumes...this is your indicator of percolation. Correct this condition with the float level in the carb bowl. Second you may need to look close at the coil for overheating and as such not able to develop sufficient secondary spark...when was your car last tuned with new points....high resistance at the contact due to wear or excessive wear not allowing time in dwell to saturate the coil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anils50 Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Thanks for your prompt suggestions: Carburetor does squirt fuel and enough fume vapors at carb. I am leaning more toward electrical problem. Coil is not over heating. Checked the connected correctly per the Dodge manual electrical diagram. Done some further troubleshooting and noticed the distributor kit that was sent by Andy bernbaum was incorrect. New sent Distributor rotor broke. They are sending the correct replacement parts. Made sure the wires are connected properly to the distributor. In the mean time used old distributor rotor noticed lot of spark going in to the distributor from coil but hardly any spark coming out of roter to the points. Distributor cap and condenser seems fine (not burnet). Tried by passing the amplifier still hardly any spark to the points. Problem could be the rotor, points or condenser. Waiting for the correct parts. In the mean time also tried to blowing through the vacuum advance and felt not working. Ordered new vacuum advance as well to make sure that is not the culprit. tried squirting starter fuel in the carb that does not help. It should start or flutter if fuel issues. Will check the fuel percolation as suggest. Will keep you posted once new part are in in couple of days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) are you ordering by model of car or model distributor....you MUST order by distributor number as it may not be stock to that year engine..when the rotor broke as most likely for the wrong distributor/parts combo....ensure you did not also damage the graphite center spring loaded commutator in the cap.. Edited July 17, 2020 by Plymouthy Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 I have never figured out why people mail order ignition parts. I've had good luck over the years getting that type of item at my local auto supply store. Might take a day to get them into the store from the local warehouse, but often if you give the store a call in the morning they will have it by that afternoon. And then you can look at the parts and compare them with the worn our existing ones and see if they match up before paying and taking delivery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anils50 Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 All good suggestions. Andy bernbaum is vintage Mopar part dealer. Gave them them the correct distributor number (IAT-4011). I thing they made a mistake sending V8 rotor parts vs V6. Did check and lucky the graphite center spring loaded commutator in the cap is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooljunkie Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Test light will verify if points function. Alligator clip on battery side that is not ground,probe touching screw where coil primary wire connects to distributor. While cranking it should flast test light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Oil Soup Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) If you have fuel in the carb throat it is percolation, so it's flooded and you need to put the pedal to the plastic and crank it, that'll start it. Also the shield may help a little but won't eliminate the problem. Plymouthys advice to adjust the float level lower should help. Edited July 17, 2020 by The Oil Soup Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belvedere Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 The first thing I would do is check for spark while it won't start...then you'll know which direction to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 I learned Something of interest lately. I had installed an electric fuel pump. Mainly used for priming. However I was also using it to supplement the mechanical fuel pump to climb the big hill home. I was running regular fuel. The car would buck a little as I climbed up to an 11% grade for a couple of miles. The electric pumped seemed to stop any bucking. A couple of times the engine stalled out, right after about an 1/8 mile of flat driving at the top of the hill as I coasted into my driveway. Hmm. That was interesting. I couldn’t quite peg down the reason for it. A short while later I switched to a premium plus fuel here, with no ethanol. I found I no longer needed to use the electric fuel pump at all. The engine and fuel got hot climbing the hill still. However no bucking. The mechanical pump worked just fine on its own. The engine has not stalled in the driveway after the hill climb either. I assume I was experiencing some vaporization? With the throttle wide open climbing the hill, the mechanical fuel pump could not keep up? The electric pump helped keep enough fuel moving to prevent any bucking. Yet when I levelled off for a bit I was over fuelling the engine. It stalled due to it being flooded? It all seems believable. All My poor performance symptoms have vanished since I switched over to no ethanol premium fuel. Hard and no-starts. Hesitation & bucking under certain conditions. Stalling. All gone. I’m a believer, ethanol is the devil for our old Mopars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Ethanol tends to lean out the mixture, how much depends on the amount of ethanol mixed in. You may have been at the edge of ok under moderate loads, but once you hit that hill it was enough to eventually push you over the edge. Just spitballing here really, an AF gauge would have told the tale and you could have rejetted, which in the long run would have been cheaper than premium. The EFI setup I am in the process of using has the ability to use a fuel sensor to determine that ethanol mix and will compensate. But that's for later implementation, I want to get it running in it's most basic mode, then add options one at a time to prevent any confusion if there is an issue. The options on the list include a wideband O2 sensor, dual MAP sensors for on the fly barometric compensation, computer controlled ignition and the fuel sensor mentioned, probably in that order. I may also add a road speed sensor as well, but that's sprinkles on the frosting on the cake, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 @Sniper what is this AF gauge you speak of? Air Fuel? Where does it get readings from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Air fuel ratio gauge, reads the output of an O2 sensor in your exhaust. Tells you you air fuel mixture ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Thanks @Sniper...I see, something a little more modern...For my own curiosity I think I am going to install a fuel pressure dial gauge. Based on what I have experienced and the amount of inquires on here around fuel delivery problems, it seem like a good system to monitor. I located a 0-15 psi 1 ½" gylcerin filled guage. I have seen folks who have mounted them in the engine compartment. Would there be safety concerns if I ran a steel line up and into the cab, so the gauge can be monitored when driving? I'll only be running the mechanical gauge. I'd like to monitor fuel PSI under various driving conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Problem with running a mechanical fuel pressure gauge is that unless you use an isolator you will have gas in the line and if it springs a leak you will have gas spraying into the passenger compartment. Some just mount them temporarily outside the passenger compartment for troubleshooting purposes. Isolators and gauges with isolator in link https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=isolated fuel pressure gauge You can use one that is electric, with a sensor in the engine compartment, but not cheap but cheaper than the isolated setup. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/gauges-analog/sending-unit/electrical/gauge-type/fuel-pressure/gauge-range/0-15-psi?N=gauge-range%3A0-15-psi&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=fuel pressure gauge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Oil Soup Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 I have a glycerin filled pressure gauge between the fuel pump and carburetor that works fine as long as you drain the liquid from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Buchanan Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Sniper said: You can use one that is electric, with a sensor in the engine compartment, but not cheap but cheaper than the isolated setup. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/gauges-analog/sending-unit/electrical/gauge-type/fuel-pressure/gauge-range/0-15-psi?N=gauge-range%3A0-15-psi&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=fuel pressure gauge 6v fuel pressure gauges might be kinda rare....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Yet another reason I converted to 12v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kencombs Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 12:04 PM, anils50 said: Thanks for your prompt suggestions: Carburetor does squirt fuel and enough fume vapors at carb. I am leaning more toward electrical problem. Coil is not over heating. Checked the connected correctly per the Dodge manual electrical diagram. Done some further troubleshooting and noticed the distributor kit that was sent by Andy bernbaum was incorrect. New sent Distributor rotor broke. They are sending the correct replacement parts. Made sure the wires are connected properly to the distributor. In the mean time used old distributor rotor noticed lot of spark going in to the distributor from coil but hardly any spark coming out of roter to the points. Distributor cap and condenser seems fine (not burnet). Tried by passing the amplifier still hardly any spark to the points. Problem could be the rotor, points or condenser. Waiting for the correct parts. In the mean time also tried to blowing through the vacuum advance and felt not working. Ordered new vacuum advance as well to make sure that is not the culprit. tried squirting starter fuel in the carb that does not help. It should start or flutter if fuel issues. Will check the fuel percolation as suggest. Will keep you posted once new part are in in couple of days. That red part is confusing: ie, amplifier? and spark to the points. Do you have a multimeter? If not, I'd recommend investing a few bucks in a cheap one. Checking for voltage and resistance in specific places is fundamental to an organized troubleshooting approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anils50 Posted August 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 okay, finally had the car started . Replace the point distributor with Protonix Electronics Ignition starter (EIS). At first Protonix sent me the wrong EIS) had to re-send ESI with magnet ring. Replaced the solid core wires with regular carbon wires since solid core wires are not compatible with Protonix. Re-checked the timing etc. Still not able to understand what is the culprit..... car still has intermittent hard start issues especially when warm. it keeps cranking and engine does not fire. Sometime it starts on a first turn but if I miss start nest couple of tries than it does not start. Carburetor squirts the gas fine. I make sure, not to over do the gas paddle avoiding flooding engine. Please feel free to provide feedback. I appreciate all your help. thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted August 28, 2020 Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 Years ago I had a somewhat similar issue with one difference. My car would sometimes stop running when it got really hot. I just fired it back up and went on. At some point it would have to sit awhile then it would fire up. Finally, it just died and would not start at all. Before it died it didn't like to starting hot even if it didn't die on it's own. Intermittent issues can be tough to figure out but in my case when it finally died I found the culprit, the coil. New coil and it was good with none of the symptoms. I reread the thread and I don't believe you mentioned the coil, which if it's still the original on you started with is the only major component of the ignition system you did not replace, aside from wiring which a jumper would find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted August 28, 2020 Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 Check the base of the carb after a long run at operating temp. Shut it off, leave the hood closed and let it sit for 15 minutes give or take. Is the base around the throttle butterfly pin wet with fuel?? If so you have a percolation problem which is made worse by today's fuel blends. When starting do not pump the gas, slowly depressing to the floor and hold it open as you crank the starter. You are basically starting a flooded engine when this occurs. You can improve the situation by lowering the level as to when the float shuts the needle and seat at the inlet. 2 or 3 30scnds usually does the trick. There should also be a sheet metal heat shield between the exhaust manifold and fuel pump. If you don't have one there is a template to make one up in the downloads section of this web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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