Hot days and chevies

[Los_Control]

Something weird happened yesterday .... my chevy let me walk home from the grocery store  

Been having some hot days lately  ~110 was 105 yesterday when I  drove my 1991 350/5spd basic plane jane truck to the store and when I got done shopping. Would not turn over.

With a manual transmission need to push the clutch in to start ... neutral safety switch.

And it acted as if the switch was bad ... like I did not have the clutch engaged.

Turn the key to on, idiot lights come on, turn the key to start and nothing, idiot lights did flash like a power draw, no click or anything.

105 out I imagine the blacktop was a lot hotter, I just walked the 10 blocks home and got wife's car and came back for groceries.

This morning, nice and cool 85 degrees out, truck starts right up .... drive it home, pickup the wife and drive her to the car and drive the truck home ... shut it off and it starts just fine.

 

How does a guy even start to diagnose a problem like this?

The starter motor sounds and works perfect, no indication of funkyness

The battery is fine, couple years old but obvious it is not the issue.

Wiring is all factory and no funkyness going on.

Could a electric neutral safety switch get hot from outdoor temps .... I would think not.

I did replace the ignition switch last year ??? Cheap China junk?

Just scratching my head and now skeered to drive it, til I figure it out.

Any of you smart kids out there have a suggestion?

 

Or is it 1/2 hour before going to the store yesterday, I dealt for and bought a Ford flat head V8 motor/trans and needed the chevy to go pick it up? 

[DJ194950]

You have angered the Mopar gods!!  ?

 

You must repent of your evil lusts for other brand vehicles  !  ?

 

DJ

[MackTheFinger]

Those are good trucks. My brother has a '96 C1500 with over 250k on it and I have a '93 K1500 with 175k. Both still going strong. A/C bit the dust on mine a couple of years ago but I can live without it. 

 

Next time your truck doesn't crank hook up a remote starter switch and see if it'll turn over. Sounds like a bad ignition switch.

[Los_Control]

 

 

53 minutes ago, MackTheFinger said:

Next time your truck doesn't crank hook up a remote starter switch and see if it'll turn over. Sounds like a bad ignition switch.

Thanks, that is a good suggestion and will carry a remote switch with me in my emergency tool kit.

Because I did change it in last year, it is suspect to be junk.

Kinda seems to me also it is most likely culprit. quality Replacement parts today are so hard to come by.

More I think about it, the more I think you are correct. ... I would bet 10 cents that a remote starter button with the key on and it would start.

I wonder if dealer would have a oem switch for a 1991 and if it would be better quality? I might check.

 

This truck has 417k on the clock ... way beyond original motor/trans/rear end But would drive it anywhere today. They really are good trucks.

[plymouthcranbrook]

It is funny that although I truly adore the old Mopars before 1980 or so after that , no. My daily drivers since the early 80's have all been Chevys up to the 2016 Traverse I bought a month or so ago. My last one , a 2001 Astro I had for 18 years and traded it in not because of running issues but it was starting to dissolve.  Before that a 77 FWD Suburban, 83 Cavalier station wagon(143,000 miles) an 83 G30 12 passenger van(174,000 miles), 1992 Cavalier(145,000).  Good service on each and every one. The Traverse will be my last car I suspect if it lasts like the others.

[Los_Control]

While I do not want to say my 91 chevy truck will be my last vehicle, not sure if sad or proud it will be my newest vehicle. This chevy has enough miles left in it to last me my lifetime, if taken care of. I fully expect to die of old age and it will be my newest truck I own.

I  expect to park it and drive my pilothouse in the future.

 

My wife does have a 1993 dodge caravan, it has a rebuilt trans in it ... 180k miles on it, runs perfect ... when the trans dies again, will get her a newer vehicle and the seats are going in the pilothouse.

 

But yeah, old school was good. I drove a zillion miles over 12 years with a 1987 ford work van 351/C6 ... just got to take care of them.

 

[plymouthcranbrook]

I an almost 70 and  drive the modern cars about 5,000 miles per year and there are two of them. I drive my Plymouths in the summer as much as I can so even with 90,000 on it now my Traverse should, if it holds up like the others, last me for what ever time I have left driving.

[MackTheFinger]

On 7/12/2020 at 4:38 PM, Los_Control said:

 

 

 

I wonder if dealer would have a oem switch for a 1991 and if it would be better quality? I might check.

 

This truck has 417k on the clock ... way beyond original motor/trans/rear end But would drive it anywhere today. They really are good trucks.

 

Hard to say whether OEM would be better. Some people say yes, some people say no. It sounds like your truck's just not energizing the solenoid. You could check for 12v on that side with someone else turning the key to start position and clutch depressed. There's a possibility it's in the wiring but since you replaced the switch once before that's what I'd suspect. Try not to get too overheated. It's far more dangerous than most people realize.

[Los_Control]

19 minutes ago, MackTheFinger said:

Hard to say whether OEM would be better.

Thats where I am at ... We can buy parts for our old Mopars from different suppliers ... DCM, Hagen, Roberts etc... chances our they are all getting the same part from the same source.

While a ignition switch from a Chevrolet dealer ... may come from the same place Autozone buys them?

 

Being a proper grumpy old man, I have no friends to help me if the switch fails again .... Thinking I may just run a push button under the dash somewhere out of the way,

Then if it fails again, I can sit in the drivers seat and use the clutch and a remote starter switch.

 

I remember my Uncle he always put a push button on his cars with a bad ignition switch ... young kid like me I laugh and think to myself, why not replace ....

I see why now, replace it with junk and 6 months down the road you need to replace it again.  While a button works just fine.

If I thought I could get a good one, I would pay more and be done with it ... I just have doubts on quality.

 

My John deere riding mower I needed to add a button to it, but ignition switch is soldered to a circuit board and doubles as the fuse box ... a button works just fine thank you.

[MackTheFinger]

One of my H-D brothers and long time employees was here late one night about 35 years ago, driving a '70 or '71 Chevy pickup. He'd been using a screwdriver as an ignition key. Those trucks still had the key on the dash. When he left the ignition switch didn't work at all. We took the switch out and replaced it with an alligator clip and a push button switch out of an old washing machine. He never replaced any of it but had to use pliers when removing the alligator clip 'cause it would get HOT!!  Said he found out the hard way when he got home that night.. This guy was something else.. I was best man at 3 of his 5 weddings and am godfather to his only son. I have some good stories about him, many not suitable for delicate audiences.

[Dan Hiebert]

My uncle had a '68 Dodge pickup for the longest time.  The ignition switch went out sometime in the '80s, shortly after the truck was relegated to only making trips to the town dump.  So my grandpa, being the frugal type, didn't see the need to install a new switch on the family garbage truck and fixed it by using a two prong electric plug for the starter.  Turn ignition on, touch the prongs together, and lo-and-behold, the truck started...every time.  It was offered to me once in the '90s (my uncle finally had to decide, junk-yard...or nephew) and I ever so briefly pondered rescuing it, but I recall that it was way too rusty for my capabilities at the time, had too much "frugal engineering" by then, and it was too far away for my means.

[Los_Control]

13 minutes ago, Dan Hiebert said:

at the time, had too much "frugal engineering"

I really want to avoid that on this old chevy.  Would like to see this one be a survivor, maybe a grand kid or nephew will enjoy it when I no longer need it.

 

That frugal engineering can be a slippery slope ... Think I will run a temp button inside the cab, run 1 wire to the battery and leave disconnected ... then if this happens again, I can connect it and verify it is the switch.

Kid at the Chevrolet dealer snickered when asked for parts for a 1991, said would need to order and may not be able to get.

Wondering now if maybe a used original switch would be better quality then a new china switch??? Will need to research and see whats next.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

dealership (per the ones I worked at years ago) would purge any stock that fell outside of 10 year current model/application.  They simply do not have the shelving or set aside funding for parts over the 10 year mark.  I look at most parts counter folks as clown without makeup....when you next see one...imagine the frizzy hair and red nose and laugh aloud...

[Los_Control]

25 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

I look at most parts counter folks as clown without makeup...

I have to agree. Locally owned parts plus store, you just described the owners son to a T, And this clown will someday be the owner.

 

The kid at the dealer I get the feeling my truck was older then he was. I said was a shot in the dark and explained why calling and hoping for better quality .... Same switch was used in many chevy for many years.

It was a fail.

 

I know several people who have these old chevy trucks ... bad ignition switches were never really a problem.

My truck had a after market security system installed in the 90's, that included a aftermarket switch. And it was wore out, you could start the truck without a key.

I needed a grinder with a cut off wheel to remove the aftermarket crap, return it to stock.

 

I do not have keys for the doors .... I am thinking to go to carpart.com, see if I cant find a ignition, door locks, keys and have them delivered .... see how long the used oem switch last.

[Dan Hiebert]

20 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I really want to avoid that on this old chevy.  Would like to see this one be a survivor, maybe a grand kid or nephew will enjoy it when I no longer need it.

 

That frugal engineering can be a slippery slope ... Think I will run a temp button inside the cab, run 1 wire to the battery and leave disconnected ... then if this happens again, I can connect it and verify it is the switch.

Kid at the Chevrolet dealer snickered when asked for parts for a 1991, said would need to order and may not be able to get.

Wondering now if maybe a used original switch would be better quality then a new china switch??? Will need to research and see whats next.

 

 

I think my grandpa and uncle took it as a challenge to see how long they could keep the truck running and at least marginally useful without spending any money on it.  While I can admire their ingenuity, I've also had to deal with older vehicles that I found I could make run and drive significantly better by re-fixing something that was shade-tree engineered.  I tend to keep our "newer" vehicles fixed with good parts, but am not beyond engineering something that works when need be.  

 

I know what you mean with parts availability, we had a 2001 Dodge PU that I was having trouble finding brand/model specific parts for.  We bought it new, so I took it kinda personally when the parts counter kid thought it was too old.  FWIW - I've had good luck with AutoZone's Duralast electrical parts.   

[Sniper]

Rock Auto lists an AC Delco replacement for about $15. Assuming non-tilt here.

 

ACDELCO D1404B {#01990115, 1990115} GM Original Equipment

 

Says original equipment, so I assume this is what Chevy used when they built it.  Note the numbers in parenthesis are the GM part numbers, which might do you better at the dealer than telling them what you have.

 

GM Parts Direct lists it as available, for a bit more.

 

https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-parts/gm-ignition-switch-1990115

 

In fact, that part number is widely available, Summit, Speedway, Amazon, etc.  Then there are the aftermarket versions, Napa lists two choices if you search by that number.  Standard lists two versions, the better of the two, US95, has a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty.  Which is better than the OE GM warranty.

 

Lots of options.

[Los_Control]

14 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Rock Auto lists an AC Delco replacement for about $15. Assuming non-tilt here.

Well I'll be dipped .... I just bought last one from local brick & mortar store.

I Assumed rock auto would be selling same switch ... Cant hope for no better then acdelco, I have the page up now and see it.

 

I bet you are correct, give the part # to the dealer and would have a better chance of getting it. Rock auto works for me though.

Thanks, now I feel lazy for not checking rock auto first .... I try to buy local when I can.

[Sniper]

I like RA for digging into things like this.  I usually buy from my local NAPA, but sometimes the price there is just too much or not available so I buy from RA.

 

 

[50mech]

I would think the starter solenoid is a more likely culprit. Like a lot of other coils they are heat affected and sit pretty close to the exhaust, and can appear to fix themselves after cooling or getting a little tap with a hammer.

They can even fake a bad ignition switch by not working when too hot but working when directly shorted at the terminals, just because doing so makes more current available.

 

It's a lot more telling on a Ford since they use a starter relay that you still get a click from. Chevy's lack of relay makes it slightly more difficult to diagnose.

Edited July 31, 2020 by 50mech

[Los_Control]

Thanks for the info, it sounds spot on. I ordered the new ignition switch, see how it goes. I now realize, the ignition switch on the chevy is 2 pieces.

Going to have to eat a little crow here ... I knew at the time they were 2 pieces, I just forgot. Was when @Sniper posted a rockauto link to the switch  ... the light went on.

My problem at the time, the tumblers were wore out, you did not need a key to start it. I wanted to fix that, same time it had a aftermarket security system on it ... goofy thing I had to cut off of the steering column with a cut off wheel, just so stock tumbler would fit.

 

But I did not change the actual electrical portion of the switch!  I unintentionally lied. ?

The body and chassis has 418k miles on it, the security system on the column must be 25+ years old ... I am thinking the actual electrical switch is original. and is time to be replaced just because. So am fine with that.

 

Problem has not come back since, it could very well be the solenoid ... changing the switch in my free time will give me peace of mind, but does not mean the issue is fixed.

Starter solenoid is almost impossible to get to ... it will require dropping the starter and working on it on the bench. To much exhaust and frame in the way.

 

I would put a starter in it tomorrow if thought it would fix it ... I might just change it anyways, instead of waiting for it to happen again.

 

[50mech]

Yeah I know, the starter takes a little dance to get out too, back then on its nose then rotate. Not too bad though.

[Los_Control]

Just now, 50mech said:

Yeah I know, the starter takes a little dance to get out too, back then on its nose then rotate. Not too bad though.

Too many more issues, may swap in a Flathead Ford V8.

 

[MackTheFinger]

There was no mention of any click or clunk or anything like that, though; which is generally the case with a bad solenoid. I've heard that some people have heat related issues with them but it's never happened to me personally. The starters are easy enough to swap out. At least the bolts go straight up. The front brace is generally a PITA, though. Most people never re-install them.

[50mech]

Ive seen 3 failure modes for solenoids.

1. Electrical. A short or open in windings. This one obviously gives no click except in the case where a short has made only a portion of the windings work resulting in a solenoid that's too weak to make the plunger push the contact switch in back. This one is heat affected.

 

2. Bad contact points. This one moves the plunger but does not give power to the motor. It's not heat affected and does give a click. 

 

3. Mechanical interference with the plunger. This one is heat affected and gives no click. The winding insulation swells just enough to bind the plunger. Sometimes the solder joint running lengthwise in the cylinder has partly melted or cracked. Often trying to start repetitively ( up to 30 or so times) or allowing it to cool will get it to go.

 

 

In any case, the start trigger wire and the instrument panel share a contact in the ignition switch when in start position, if the switch isnt making contact the instrument panel will lose power as long as you're trying to crank and return when you let it back to run position. That's the telltale for ignition switch failure.

 

They won't blink as you turn the key,signifying the transition from run to start, they'll just go out.

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by 50mech

[Los_Control]

Giving the solenoid some more thought, electrical does some strange things with heat.

In my case, the engine was not warm, cold start and 6 blocks to grocery store and shut off. T-stat just possibly opening up.

The temp that day did get to 114, I said conservatively it was 105 and getting warmer last I checked. ... then you get the blacktop parking lot with all the heat just soaking it up.

My 2 wheel drive truck sits pretty low .... I dunno.

 

Once drove with father inlaw from New Mexico to Washington, the electric fuel pump was going out. Was not in the cards to get it changed, small towns and no parts available or was nobody available to change it. We had no tools to drop the tank and change the pump.

 

Drive the car in the afternoon, the roads would heat up and the tank would get hot and the pump would quit working.

Then we could let it cool off, when weather got cooler, could drive all night long, right up til 11:00-12:00 the next day when roads started heating up, it would stop working again. We always got a little warning and made it somewhere to sit and wait for things to cool. Last time we made it to a city park in southwest Oregon, hung out for 4-5 hours and made it home from there.

 

With that experience with a older worn electric item, will work all day long at 100 degree's temp, when it reaches 101, she's going south.

Why I am trying to guess how hot the blacktop parking lot would be in 110 degree temps ...still guessing the starter might actually get warmer from exhaust and a 30 min drive.

Sometimes I wish I was smart enough to figure these things out  ?

 

I am changing the switch just because I should have done it the first time, this will be my 3rd time in the steering column. .... lessons learned.

I think I will go ahead and drop the starter. If all wiring is fine and nothing sketchy, probably replace the starter.

 

While I should be acting like a adult and doing adult things like work on my daily driver, I find myself working on a Ford engine and I do not even own a Ford!