Rookie Brake Questions

[ChrisMinelli]

Hello,

 

1.  How do you remove the support plate / backing plate off of the front knuckles?  I have a '52 Plymouth with original Lockheed brakes.  Is there a bolt or something besides the anchor bolts that go through the knuckle?

 

2.  I understand a puller is needed to remove the rear brake drums.  What I don't understand is how you put the drums back?  Do you press them back on the drum with the axle castle bolt?  At what torque, and then do you back off the bolt to get the cotter pin installed?  I don't want to pull the drums until I have a good understanding of putting them back.

 

Thanks!

[greg g]

In the downloads section is a step by step brakes how to.

[ChrisMinelli]

With all due respect, a search in the downloads section came up with three files and none of them answered the questions posed.  I apologize if I am not searching the site correctly.

[Sam Buchanan]

You will definitely need a puller to remove the rear drum and it can still be some work if they are really stuck. But this puller is about as good as you can get if you don't have the original tools:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/251169591646?hash=item3a7adfd15e

 

 

Yes, use the axle nut to seat the drum on the taper. I tighten the nut until the 24" breaker bar starts flexing then stop at the next slot for the cotter key. The service manual calls for minimum of 142 ft/lbs on the axle nuts.....you do have a manual, right?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[soth122003]

21 minutes ago, ChrisMinelli said:

With all due respect, a search in the downloads section came up with three files and none of them answered the questions posed.  I apologize if I am not searching the site correctly.

Look in the technical section then under the sub heading Brakes.

 

Joe Lee

[ChrisMinelli]

8 minutes ago, Sam Buchanan said:

Yes, use the axle nut to seat the drum on the taper. I tighten the nut until the 24" breaker bar starts flexing then stop at the next slot for the cotter key. The service manual calls for minimum of 142 ft/lbs on the axle nuts.....you do have a manual, right?

 

I do... I think the manual assumes the user has some knowledge of how things work.  I see the torque for "axle nut" now, but it doesn't explain why you would torque it that much.  Now I understand.  (Note the axle nut could be hand loosened when I undid it... I didn't think that would happen if it was 142.)

[ChrisMinelli]

4 minutes ago, soth122003 said:

Look in the technical section then under the sub heading Brakes.

 

Joe Lee

 

Thanks!  I still don't see any info on removing the backing plate.  Should I just tug on it when the anchor bolts are removed?  Again, I own the 1953 service manual (covering 1946-1953) and I promise you there isn't a single mention of backing plate removal.

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, ChrisMinelli said:

 

I do... I think the manual assumes the user has some knowledge of how things work.  I see the torque for "axle nut" now, but it doesn't explain why you would torque it that much.  Now I understand.  (Note the axle nut could be hand loosened when I undid it... I didn't think that would happen if it was 142.)

 

The nuts were that loose the first time I removed the drums on my car, too. You might recheck torque after a few dozen miles have accumulated on the brake job, I was able to torque mine another notch or two. The high torque maintains the friction fit on the axle taper so the key won't be carrying the load and wear or fail.

 

If you are certain all the bolts are out of the backing plate, persuade it a bit with a hammer and block of wood.....let it know who's boss......   ?

 

After you have worked on your car awhile, you will start thinking like a '40's engineer and the (simple) design will make more sense and you will come to appreciate how clever those guys were with getting maximum return with minimum technology. I love driving my car because it carries me back to 1948 and the thing is so........mechanical.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Sniper]

You don't need a puller to take the hubs off.  I didn't need one on my 52 because like the OP the nut was finger tight and the hubs were loose.  That's an school trick I learned a long time ago.  Loosen the hub nuts, put the cotter pin back in, drive around the block several times, in both directions, then when you get home rock the back of the car side to side and the hubs pop loose.  Then you can jack the car up, pull the tires and then the drums.  Might have to do the drive a few times, but it works.

 

 

[ChrisMinelli]

Nice, thanks guys!

 

Im going to poke around the front a little bit tonight and post my findings on removing the backing plate here just in case anyone searches for it in the future. 

[TodFitch]

6 hours ago, ChrisMinelli said:

Hello,

 

1.  How do you remove the support plate / backing plate off of the front knuckles?  I have a '52 Plymouth with original Lockheed brakes.  Is there a bolt or something besides the anchor bolts that go through the knuckle?

 

2.  I understand a puller is needed to remove the rear brake drums.  What I don't understand is how you put the drums back?  Do you press them back on the drum with the axle castle bolt?  At what torque, and then do you back off the bolt to get the cotter pin installed?  I don't want to pull the drums until I have a good understanding of putting them back.

 

Thanks!

 

I am curious as to why you need to remove the front backing plates if you are just doing a brake job. . . Shouldn't be required.

 

While some have claimed that loosening the rear hub nut and driving around the block works, I am a fan of using the correct puller.

[Sam Buchanan]

4 hours ago, Sniper said:

You don't need a puller to take the hubs off.  I didn't need one on my 52 because like the OP the nut was finger tight and the hubs were loose.  That's an school trick I learned a long time ago.  Loosen the hub nuts, put the cotter pin back in, drive around the block several times, in both directions, then when you get home rock the back of the car side to side and the hubs pop loose.  Then you can jack the car up, pull the tires and then the drums.  Might have to do the drive a few times, but it works.

 

 

 

Or just use the puller and have a hub off in 3-4 minutes.......    ?

Edited April 23, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[kencombs]

4 hours ago, Sniper said:

You don't need a puller to take the hubs off.  I didn't need one on my 52 because like the OP the nut was finger tight and the hubs were loose.  That's an school trick I learned a long time ago.  Loosen the hub nuts, put the cotter pin back in, drive around the block several times, in both directions, then when you get home rock the back of the car side to side and the hubs pop loose.  Then you can jack the car up, pull the tires and then the drums.  Might have to do the drive a few times, but it works.

 

 

You're right of course, but I hesitate to recommend this to the inexperienced.  A little too loose and/or to much throttle can damage the key, keyway(s), axle or hub.    And, I've had that method fail on a couple back in the day.  Safer, faster to use a puller. 

[ChrisMinelli]

12 hours ago, TodFitch said:

 

I am curious as to why you need to remove the front backing plates if you are just doing a brake job. . . Shouldn't be required.

 

 

I know -- normally the back plate does not need to come off.  However, one of the (minor adjustment) cam bolts broke off in my hand when I was adjusting it down to take off the drum.  I am not comfortable driving around with no way to do a minor adjustment on one shoe if needed.

 

The former owner let the car detriorate and the chassis / undercarriage is caked with cement-like grease and dirt.  I am using a pick to clean it up but I still haven't discovered a way to get the front backing plate off.  I see there are two anchor bolts for the shoes and they go through the knuckle.  I suspect there is at lease one more bolt holding the thing on but I am wary of just loosening things, especially around the king pin, without knowing what I am doing.

[Dodgeb4ya]

To remove front backing plate...

**Remove brake shoes

**Remove rubber flex brake hose from upper wheel cylinder..

**Remove both upper and lower wheel cylinder anchor bolts

**Remove both wheel cylinders with brake line still attached

**Remove backing plate from Knuckle

######  NOTE....update..You need to remove both lower bolts that hold steering arm as noted in next post!! One W/cyl anchor bolt and one regular that retains the backing plate too.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Dodgeb4ya

[TodFitch]

55 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

To remove front backing plate...

**Remove brake shoes

**Remove rubber flex brake hose from upper wheel cylinder..

**Remove both upper and lower wheel cylinder anchor bolts

**Remove both wheel cylinders with brake line still attached

**Remove backing plate from Knuckle

 

 

On my '33 the major adjusting cam/bolts are also two of the four bolts that hold the backing plate onto the steering knuckle. Is that also true of the later cars?

[Dodgeb4ya]

On the 1946 and later front backing plates..... only the upper and lower cam bolts (2) retain the backing plate and wheel cylinders...(Upper/lower).

*********Correction ...remove the upper anchor and both lower bolts.. one anchor and one regular bolt retaining the backing plate.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Dodgeb4ya

[ChrisMinelli]

13 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

On the 1946 and later front backing plates..... only the upper and lower cam bolts (2) retain the backing plate and wheel cylinders...(Upper/lower).

On my 52 the wheel cylinders in the front are only held in place by the anchor bolts.  So those two bolts are the only thing holding the backing plate on?  Must be a good amount of scuzz gluing it to the knuckle.  I’ll pull it off tonight.  Thanks!!

[Dodgeb4ya]

With those two anchor bolts out the plate will pull off.?

[dodgeguy]

The first time I was under my 47sedan to grease front end( I did have luxury of a 2 post lift) I stood there thinking like a 40s engineer I couldn't help think how many mechanics before me had stood in a grease pit with coveralls and a "Royal Triton" scull cap on and performed this same task. It was humbling I think I counted 21 zerk fittings total!!!

[squirebill]

Same thing happened to me with '49 B1B truck.  Broke the bolt trying to back  the nut off so could turn the bolt to do the brake adjustment.  Also,  the remainder of the bolt was seized in  it's bore in the knuckle.  Don't remember exactly how i got it out  but do remember using PB blaster for days, heated it with Mapp torch , rigged up a fine thread "C" clamp.  Finally got it out and remember the bolt body and knuckle bore was coated with rust powder.  The PB blaster didn't seem to penetrate at all unless it dried out when I put the torch to it. General pain in the butt. I tell you this in case you try to pull the backing plate off and it does come easily you could end up with a bent backing plate.  Get the remainder of the bolt out first would be my recommendation.    

[DJK]

On my 52 there is a 3rd bolt next to the lower anchor bolt, it has a square head visible on the inside of the backing plate, it holds the steering knuckle arm on. Also see page 40 in the service manual, it shows it from the back side.

[Dodgeb4ya]

DJK...

You are right..both lower steering arm bolts must be removed...My lapse of shrinking memory?

[DJK]

I had to go out and look, I just had it apart the other day!!!!! I got a good memory, it's just short!

[dpollo]

there is an arrow on each of the anchor bolts.  you should make a note of where it is pointing as the anchors are eccentric.

If this advice is too late, point the arrow toward the cylinder before tightening the anchor.   Begin major adjustment by turning the anchor until you get very light shoe contact with the drum  at the heel of the shoe (anchor end)   Make sure the other cams are at their lowest .