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Cleveland to Spicer u-joint switchover


bkahler

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As I've been doing research on  my driveshaft, differential, transmission and u-joints I get more and more confused.

 

My 51 B3B came to me with a 4-speed spur type transmission where the floor plate cover had obviously been hacked for the shifter tower.  The steering column showed signs that there should have been a shifter mechanism there and the column floor seal had the opening in it for the shifter rod.  So obviously my truck originally had a 3-speed.  As I was collecting parts I opted for the later 4-speed New Process 420 gearbox with syncros.  

 

This change led to an issue with the 420 transmission end yoke u-joint.  It was a Spicer style where the old transmission had the Cleveland style.  This is where I get confused.  It seems that most references I read indicate that the 51s and later used the Spicer u-joints at the diff and the transmission.  If this is the case then why did my truck have a Cleveland u-joint at the differential? 

 

I have read of people dropping in Cherokee differentials where the driveshaft bolts right up.  The only way that would happen is if the diff was already configured for Spicer u-joints.  

 

See my confusion?

 

 

Brad

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8 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I would venture a guess that a previous owner swapped in a 4 speed from an earlier truck, and rather than modifying the driveshaft to work with different u-joints they swapped in the earlier axle too. 

 

Merle, 

 

There is a lot about these swap combinations on these old vehicles that I'm not familiar with.  I was under the impression that 1951 was the first year 3:73 was available in the trucks.  I was also under the impression that car axles had a different spline count than truck axles.  If some PO swapped in a 3:73 from a car wouldn't that mean they would have to swap axles as well?  I've never counted the splines on my axles but can do that tonight.

 

If I remember right my truck is something like the 2000th truck made in 51.  Would it be possible the Cleveland style of joints were still being used early in the B3 era?

 

Would the part numbers cast into the pumpkin housing be different between cars and trucks?  Maybe that would help determine if a diff change was made. 

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

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6 hours ago, JBNeal said:

The 3.73 ratio in that carrier has me wondering if it came out of a car, seems like I heard somebody do that to their Fluid Drive.......

 

Up to this point I assumed it came original with the truck.  The truck was not a fluid drive, at least there were no holes in the hoods for the Fluid Drive badge.

 

 

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I didn't see anything about a 3.73 diff ratio in the initial post. However... my parts book lists a 3.73 gear set as available for all generations of the B-series, in B and C models, but I've never personally seen a truck with 3.73 gears that hadn't been modified in that respect. In my case I happened across a deal for a diff from a '50 Plymouth that had 3.73 gears. I had to swap the pinion drive flange to keep the truck version, as the car drive flange is quite different, do to their use of ball and trunion joints. Other than that it was a direct swap into my axle. 

 

There was a change in the axle shaft splines at some point in the early to mid '50's, but I don't know exactly when that took place. And it could have taken place at different points between the product lines. If you happen across a diff with the updated splines I've heard stories from guys that successfully swapped the side gears within the differential so that they could continue to use their existing shafts.

 

As for the universal joints for your truck. A B3B should have the later Spicer type u-joint. The change was made during the B2 series generation. There is no S/N break as to when they changed, it only designates the "UP TO" as the Lock Plate type and the "AFTER" as the Retainer type. And you need to make the determination by how your u-joint is retained. The fact that your truck has the lock plate, or Cleveland type, u-joints leads me to believe someone swapped in a complete drive train from an earlier truck. Maybe they came across an earlier truck with 3.73 gearing and a 4 speed and decided they wanted that setup in their B3B truck?

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2 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I didn't see anything about a 3.73 diff ratio in the initial post. However... my parts book lists a 3.73 gear set as available for all generations of the B-series, in B and C models, but I've never personally seen a truck with 3.73 gears that hadn't been modified in that respect. In my case I happened across a deal for a diff from a '50 Plymouth that had 3.73 gears. I had to swap the pinion drive flange to keep the truck version, as the car drive flange is quite different, do to their use of ball and trunion joints. Other than that it was a direct swap into my axle. 

 

There was a change in the axle shaft splines at some point in the early to mid '50's, but I don't know exactly when that took place. And it could have taken place at different points between the product lines. If you happen across a diff with the updated splines I've heard stories from guys that successfully swapped the side gears within the differential so that they could continue to use their existing shafts.

 

As for the universal joints for your truck. A B3B should have the later Spicer type u-joint. The change was made during the B2 series generation. There is no S/N break as to when they changed, it only designates the "UP TO" as the Lock Plate type and the "AFTER" as the Retainer type. And you need to make the determination by how your u-joint is retained. The fact that your truck has the lock plate, or Cleveland type, u-joints leads me to believe someone swapped in a complete drive train from an earlier truck. Maybe they came across an earlier truck with 3.73 gearing and a 4 speed and decided they wanted that setup in their B3B truck?

Merle,

 

I had always thought my truck was all original but you've sure done a good job of blowing holes in that theory!  I guess the first clue was when JB pointed out that I had a Desoto radiator :)

 

The u-joints had always baffled me as to why I had Cleveland style when everyone seemed to think they should be Spicer.  Your theory sounds very plausible.  I wish there was an easy way to eliminate the Cleveland joint on the differential but that would require a different driveshaft.  Of course I still need to buy the Cleveland u-joint so maybe that money would be better spent finding a different driveshaft and then finding a way to source a Spicer pinion yoke.  So many things to think about.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Brad

 

 

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3 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

 

There was a change in the axle shaft splines at some point in the early to mid '50's, but I don't know exactly when that took place. And it could have taken place at different points between the product lines. If you happen across a diff with the updated splines I've heard stories from guys that successfully swapped the side gears within the differential so that they could continue to use their existing shafts.

 

 

The interchangeability of that era rear ends is sometimes just amazing.  Back in '70 I bought a little 65 Dart, 273/4bbl/4speed.  Came with a 3.23 rear end.  Of course I wanted better acceleration and went looking for a 3.55.  Found one in a 56 Chrysler.  Pulled the center section from both and after examination, swapped the side gears from my 65 A body to the big car diff to match the axle spline count.  56 to 65, little car, big car, still fit! And that same gear set dates back to the later 40s.

 

Same Chrysler donated its' hemi to my 58 Ford pickup, but that's another story.

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Another theory on the possible "upgrades" a previous owner made...

As you state, you see evidence that it may have had column shift, which would indicate it had a 3 speed. With the swap to a 4 speed it would require a different length driveshaft. So they may have just used the driveshaft from the donor truck, and since the rear u-joint wouldn't have matched up they may have just swapped the differential pinion flange with the earlier version. If this is the case your axle and diff may still be original. Or that could be a mix match of components from other donor vehicles. Only time travel would tell the whole story... ?

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8 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I've heard stories from guys that successfully swapped the side gears within the differential so that they could continue to use their existing shafts.

 

 

Yes we did that for my 3.73 in my 48 coupe. Of course not before installing the diff and trying to install the axles ...

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7 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

Another theory on the possible "upgrades" a previous owner made...

As you state, you see evidence that it may have had column shift, which would indicate it had a 3 speed. With the swap to a 4 speed it would require a different length driveshaft. So they may have just used the driveshaft from the donor truck, and since the rear u-joint wouldn't have matched up they may have just swapped the differential pinion flange with the earlier version. If this is the case your axle and diff may still be original. Or that could be a mix match of components from other donor vehicles. Only time travel would tell the whole story... ?

 

This scenario sounds more like what probably happened.  I checked the spline count and the axles and there are 10 splines.  I believe Don Bunn stated the change from 10 to 16 took place in 1952.  Mine is a 51 so that seems to add up.

 

Now about time travel........

 

 

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1953 was the 10 to 16 spline axle shaft change over.

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1 hour ago, JBNeal said:

 

Crap.  No matter how hard I try too two take steps forward it seems that I end up taking one step back instead.  Back when I was doing my springs I sandblasted them and then painted them with the Miracle Paint and the the Chassis paint.  Now it seems the correct thing to do would be dismantle the springs again, strip the paint and install Delrin liners.  

 

?

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While I was reading on the Detriot Spring site one of the recommendations regarding the painting seemed to me to cautioning against painting in the tie bolt/ubolt area.  Apparently the issue is the loosening of the ubolts due to paint wear.  That causes leaf breakage. 

 

So maybe a full paint removal isn't necessary, just a few inches in that area.  Maybe??

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17 hours ago, kencombs said:

While I was reading on the Detriot Spring site one of the recommendations regarding the painting seemed to me to cautioning against painting in the tie bolt/ubolt area.  Apparently the issue is the loosening of the ubolts due to paint wear.  That causes leaf breakage. 

 

So maybe a full paint removal isn't necessary, just a few inches in that area.  Maybe??

 

That is exactly the reason.  Statement of NOTHING should be in the spring pack that can wear away.  I tend to agree.  Even the Teflon "sheet" material will cold flow and/or wear and could cause a loose pack leading to failure.  Paint the outside and realize springs will get rust on them by nature.  Even grease can cause issues metallurgically.  

 

How do I know my springs get exercise?  I see some rust in the grooves working it's way out!  :P

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I'm going to set aside the probable issue with the springs until a later date.  That's a project that can take place even after it's on the road.  If I don't start making progress with the rest of the truck I might as well park it for another 20 years!

 

I'm back on the differential hoping to narrow down just what if anything I need to do......

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