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Broken Hinge Pin???


CO54

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I've done a lot of searching the forum, and reading up on other's experience in getting these door hinges off.  I've been spraying the hinges for a bit, put on 2 8" C-clamps last night with a socket over the top of the pin, cranked down last night as hard as possible.  Came out today, tried snugging em up again, and neither would budge.  Pulled the clamps off to spray more and noticed the top pin issue.  When the door swings open the top of the pin doesn't move, but the bottom of the pin does.  I marked the bottom of the pin threads with a sharpie to try to highlight the movement.  Anyone ever seen this before?

Video won't link in from OneDrive.

Thoughts?

Thanks, 

Eric

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Probably a dumb question but what are you using as a penetrant?   Some are definitely better than others.  Kroil and PB Blaster are two of the better ones. 

 

After spraying you can tray smacking the side of the hinge with a hammer a couple of times, sometimes that little bit of vibration can help the fluid work it's way down inside.   It's a slow process but don't give up just yet!

 

 

 

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Something just came to mind.  Is any part of the pin extending below the bottom of the hinge?  If so if this is even slightly mushroomed or bent it's not going to willingly be pushed up through the hinge.  If it does extend past I would consider cutting the bottom off flush with the bottom of the hinge and then using a small section of 1/4" rod (1/2" long maybe) and us that to press up on the bottom of the hinge using your C-clamp method.  I believe the hinge pin diameter is about .3125 or 5/16".

 

Anyway, just a thought.

 

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All 4 pins on both sides come out at least 1/2", driver upper more from threads and mirror mount, none of the pins are mushroomed.  Been trying the pressure with clamp method, before the beating with BFH method.  The heating method, then beating maybe required, just going to use more patience right now, work on other little odds n ends. 

Thanks. 

 

Edited by CO54
typo
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Dont know if you have access to an air hammer. 
i have moved rusted stuff for many years with an air hammer and water. The rattling with water turns rust into mud and it runs out. 
I have modified hammer bits to drive pins and other things. 
usually i try this method before using penetrating oil, as the water gets in and loosens the rust easier than if it was oily. 
best of luck, i know these things can be a bear.

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You may have read about my experience w/ my Plymouth door hinges, but of the 6 hinges (the other two are made onto the door, and cannot be removed) on my 4 door, 4 had the pins twisted off just below the serrations (at the top of the pin).  I had them all off of the car, so put them in the hydraulic press.  None of them came out that way, and I had a great deal of pressure on them.  The two unbroken ones came out fairly easily.  The deal is that the pin is supposed to rotate in the hinge tongue, and it is steel to steel.  The oil dries up, water gets in, and they rust up fast.  I ended up drilling them out.  It's a tedious business, to make sure you don't drill into the hinge tongue itself, but actually the ideal would be if you could drill a smaller hole just skimming the edge of the hole.  On the ones where I managed to do that, the pin then came out fairly easily, but still on the press.

 

My pins were all 11/32, but although I'm not positive, I do suspect that they had been drilled out over-size for larger diameter pins.  I believe that the original size was 5/16" as you suggest.  My plan is to drill out (then ream to final size) all of the hinge tongues to accept a bronze bushing w/ an ID of 5/16, then go back to the original pin size.  

 

[I started on this now a bit over a year ago, but business and "Honey Do projects" at home have been getting in the way of my hobby, and I've not gotten back to it yet.  My main issue yet is how to get the holes in the hinge frame back to the correct size.  I know how I want to do it, but need a metal lathe in order to make the parts.]

Edited by Eneto-55
correct spelling
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   You have pushed the pin to the broken point and the lower part of the pin isn't following through. Pull the top of the pin off and drive the lower part, out the bottom. If that works for your application.

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7 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

   You have pushed the pin to the broken point and the lower part of the pin isn't following through. Pull the top of the pin off and drive the lower part, out the bottom. If that works for your application.

I think you are directing this comment to CO54, but I'll just make another comment here regarding my experience with this issue.

One of the problems faced with a broken pin is that the hinge can move to the side at the top, with the result that the main part of the pin (lower part) may be prevented from coming out because it is up against the side of the hole at the top of the hinge frame, the hole it has to pass through.  On the first hinge I worked on, I managed to get a enough room between the hinge tongue and the hinge frame at the lower point that I was able to get a hack saw blade in there, and so I cut off the lower part of the pin, where it goes into the hinge frame.  This allowed me to remove the hinge tongue from the hinge frame.  Even then I could not press the broken pin out of the hinge frame.  It was at that point that I decided that the only way forward was to drill it out. 

 

Sawing it off, I did get over into the hinge tongue a bit, and after I got the pin out, I did grind that down smooth.  I may grind all of the others down there as well, so that I can insert a brass (or bronze) washer in there, so that the weight of the door is not steel on steel at that point.  My only hesitation  on this is that it narrows the width of the hinge tongue.  But the door is acting on both top & bottom pivot points, so I don't think that is an issue, and I think that it will make the door swing more freely, and also provide a place for better lubrication, and a part that can be relatively easily replaced if it wears out. 

 

Over thinking it, I suppose, but in the restoration process you have the opportunity to make it better than it was originally, and I think that the original hinge design was a weakness (the steel on steel situation which resulted in sagging doors, which in turn results in severely worn striker plates, requiring drilling out the hinges for over-sized pins, etc.).  (My striker plates, by the way, are in really poor shape as well.  My car has over 91,000 miles on it, and we all know that people back then didn't normally take the long highway trips typical of travel today, so that indicates that the driver's door, at least, has been opened & closed a whole bunch of times.)

 

Edited by Eneto-55
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E and 9, thanks for the insight.  Quick update, I got home last night and still have clamps on both upper hinges.  I could get access to the driver side,  gave the clamp another good twist and got a solid popping sound from it.  Tightened up some more and left it.  Will continue when I get home tonight.  At least there seems to be some movement.  Also back and forth on the air hammer idea, just afraid of really mushrooming the bottom of pin with that option. 

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On 1/3/2020 at 9:07 AM, CO54 said:

E and 9, thanks for the insight.  Quick update, I got home last night and still have clamps on both upper hinges.  I could get access to the driver side,  gave the clamp another good twist and got a solid popping sound from it.  Tightened up some more and left it.  Will continue when I get home tonight.  At least there seems to be some movement.  Also back and forth on the air hammer idea, just afraid of really mushrooming the bottom of pin with that option. 

 

Well, it's been 24 hours since it popped.....any updates ?

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Didn't post update from last night because we decided to have family cards night.  I lost by the way.  

Got home from work, and was looking at the pin, gave an attempt at another pop or movement, got nothing.  Wifey was out with me and asked what was going on, so I pulled the clamp and showed her.  With what had been mentioned above, about it possibly being threaded in, I pulled out the vice grips and tried to unscrew the bottom side of pin.  It snapped off.  Her and I discussed the other options, and looks like the hinges will be getting pulled from the A-pillar, to fight the pins with the doors off the truck.  

 

For some reason, I recall others mentioning that there are some shims or parts inside the A-pillar that can fall into a void when the hinges are pulled????  From feeling around inside the A-pillar, it feels like the bolts simply go into the hinge on the '54's.  

 

Will be getting into it later today and post results, after doing a tune-up on a coworkers vehicle this morning. 

Thanks

Eric

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23 minutes ago, CO54 said:

For some reason, I recall others mentioning that there are some shims or parts inside the A-pillar that can fall into a void when the hinges are pulled????  From feeling around inside the A-pillar, it feels like the bolts simply go into the hinge on the '54's.  

 

Will be getting into it later today and post results, after doing a tune-up on a coworkers vehicle this morning. 

Thanks

Eric

 

This is regarding the Plymouth (car), so may not apply, but in this case the hinge nuts are caged.  (Some in & out adjustment is allowable, but they cannot fall away, unless the cage breaks away inside the pillar.)

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2 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

 

This is regarding the Plymouth (car), so may not apply, but in this case the hinge nuts are caged.  (Some in & out adjustment is allowable, but they cannot fall away, unless the cage breaks away inside the pillar.)

From feeling around inside, it seems that the bolts go directly through the A-pillar into the hinge.  No nut can be felt on the inside, giving me the impression the hinge is the threaded nut attachment point. 

 

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15 minutes ago, CO54 said:

Didn't post update from last night because we decided to have family cards night.  I lost by the way.  

 

Did that set the tone for what was to come?!

 

15 minutes ago, CO54 said:

Got home from work, and was looking at the pin, gave an attempt at another pop or movement, got nothing.  Wifey was out with me and asked what was going on, so I pulled the clamp and showed her.  With what had been mentioned above, about it possibly being threaded in, I pulled out the vice grips and tried to unscrew the bottom side of pin.  It snapped off.  Her and I discussed the other options, and looks like the hinges will be getting pulled from the A-pillar, to fight the pins with the doors off the truck.  

 

Do you have a parts manual for your truck?  I don't think I've ever worked on or restored a vehicle that I didn't have the parts manual for.   It's possible the parts manual might give an indication as to whether it's screwed in or pressed in.  My vote is it's pressed in.

 

15 minutes ago, CO54 said:

For some reason, I recall others mentioning that there are some shims or parts inside the A-pillar that can fall into a void when the hinges are pulled????  From feeling around inside the A-pillar, it feels like the bolts simply go into the hinge on the '54's.  

 

I don't recall anything like that on my truck.  There's just a lot of slots to make things adjustable.  Looking at the pictures you posted the hinges on your truck look just like my B3B.  If you look at my attached pictures you'll see that the top hinge pin has splines where it contacts the upper section of the hinge.  The rest of the pin is smooth and is a slip fit in the bore.  

 

There are no nuts that can fall down and get lost.  Just unbolt your hinges from the A pillar and take the doors off.  You'll notice I never removed the bottom hinge pin on my doors.  That might be something I have to deal with in the near future but then again, maybe not :)

 

 

 

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Judging from the bottom two photos posted above by BKahler, the hinge frame in the bottom photo, and the hinge tongue in the other, appear to be riveted on, and cannot be removed w/o some later modification to reattach them.  (Unless there are nuts on the inside.)  So my comments based on the Plymouth do not apply.  (Only the lower hinge of the rear doors is riveted on in the case of the passenger cars - riveted to the door.  I have not removed the pins on those - not sure if I will.)

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3 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Judging from the bottom two photos posted above by BKahler, the hinge frame in the bottom photo, and the hinge tongue in the other, appear to be riveted on, and cannot be removed w/o some later modification to reattach them.  (Unless there are nuts on the inside.)  So my comments based on the Plymouth do not apply.  (Only the lower hinge of the rear doors is riveted on in the case of the passenger cars - riveted to the door.  I have not removed the pins on those - not sure if I will.)

 

On my B3B the rivets are on the doors only and yes, they are rivets.  The top hinge on the A pillar has a nut plate welded on the inside of the cab and the hinge arm bolts to the nut plate.  The bottom hinge actually uses the hinge itself as a nut plate and is captured between two sections of sheet metal on the A-pillar.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, CO54 said:

Brad, 

Looks similar to what I'm looking at. 

y4mUCjuDjhSSifnvTvpgQqUJZQ1bkHGlIH3mSTNS

 

 

Well time to get moving on other things, before getting into the truck. 

Thanks all.

Eric

 

When you remove the bolts from the hinges take note as to whether or not the bolt heads are thinner than normal.  I haven't verified that on mine yet but while browsing DCM's site the other day I noticed they sell new hinge bolts with low profile heads.   Anyway, something to be aware of when you bag up the parts :)

 

Brad

 

 

 

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Both cab sides will come off with the door no problems.  It will be way easier to deal with.  Just be carefull to not muck up the hinge to door connection/door sheet metal.  If you REALLY need to you can remove the rivets and use bolts with a thinned head to put them back on.

 

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2 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

Both cab sides will come off with the door no problems.  It will be way easier to deal with.  Just be carefull to not muck up the hinge to door connection/door sheet metal.  If you REALLY need to you can remove the rivets and use bolts with a thinned head to put them back on.

 

 

Mark, has a good point about not mucking up the sheet metal on the A pillar.  In the attached pictures you can see where the hinge bar slides into a pocket.  You might want to start spraying the hinge bolts with PB Blaster also.  It would suck if those bolts stripped or broke.

 

Brad

 

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Are you supporting the weight of door so the hinge doesn't have any weight on it?

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