We really are at the tipping point...

[James_Douglas]

This is more of a philosophical thread than anything else.

 

As I gather all the information I can find on the Powerflite Transmission for the work on the 1947 Desoto over the next couple of years, it has become apparent that we are at the tipping point. That would be the tipping point at which information about a large number of old car things are vanishing.

 

I made some calls and sent some emails to the acknowledged sources for parts and rebuilding of these transmissions. I asked them questions based on my research of reading the Chrysler Service Bulletins and reading the "Service Notes" in the big blue "Motors" manuals.

 

The interesting thing is that the folks who supply parts and rebuild these transmissions were are unaware of the running changes or the design changes over the life of the these transmissions.

 

What I am noting over the last about 10 years is the steady decline in people and places that can support this old car hobby.  It is quickly coming to pass that unless you are working on something that was widely produced like a SBC or a Torqueflite transmission or a TH350 or 289 Ford or the like, that even things like the Powerflite which was built for years and a million units that you can find yourself out of luck.

 

I noted some months back that Standard Products has moved is ignition plant from New Jersey to Mexico where they made their "Flagship" Blue Streak products for 50 years. Multiple sets of points I purchased had to go back as they were junk. Old ones I got of ebay were fine.

 

I think over the next 5 or 10 years we are going to see the issues of dealing with old cars quickly go down hill. Maintaining them for use as daily drivers will get to be more and more challenging even to those of us that sort of know what we are doing.

 

James.

[Sam Buchanan]

James, you make valid points, the collector car community will continue to see changes along with every other hobbyist pursuit.

 

The difficulties with keeping old cars in a condition for reliable use shouldn't come as a surprise.......how many products do we use daily that are 75 years old? As a general rule the products we use in daily routines are considered obsolete in ten years......expecting full support for automotive products several decades old is a big ask.

 

But that is part of the charming challenge of keeping old cars driveable, we just have to be prepared for the inevitable decline of support. Time waits for no man....or car......   

 

Best wishes for a great 2020 as we chase parts, knowledge and fun with old cars! 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[kencombs]

I agree.  We will be forced to decide whether keeping it running or keeping it original is most important.   Your comment on points is a great illustration. New points, and even more so, condensers are of terrible quality.  So, for me, the choice is convert to electronic ignition.  But not aftermarket as local replacements are often not available.  Converted slant six distributor instead.

 

Steering parts are also candidates for custom parts, as you mentioned in another post.

 

Many, many years ago a local Dodge, Plymouth, Chrysler dealer closed up shop.  Dad and I bought a lot of parts that Mopar wouldn't credit back as it was considered obsolete .  New cranks, kingpins etc.  But, more valuable was the info we got from the retiring owner/mechanic.  He was in his 80s and worked on Mopar stuff his whole life.  A walking encylopedia.  That type of resource is gone forever.  And, even more tragic is the fact that I didn't have the foresight to grab all the books, brochures, bulletins etc that got trashed.  In my defense, I'm 76 now but was only 21 when that occurred.  1950 something tech bulletins had no value.

[Donny318]

I agree. It's only going to become more difficult and expensive as a hobby. But at least we have the internet and can help each other.

[mlozier76]

I see the validity in the points you are making. Scarcity and decreasing quality of product are becoming more common.  It kind of makes me think of the vehicles in Cuba, lol.  Pretty on the outside and cobbled together on the inside to keep it moving.  I don't want to go that route for most of my projects, but I am not a true purist. I want for mine to have the vintage feel, and some of the newer to their time parts (my 48 will have some 50's "speed" parts).  Inevitably we are in a niche market, one that caters to us and we oftentimes have to find the specialists, or become them ourselves.  Keep them moving down the road, get or keep the younger generations interested in them, and have fun with them.  I have my Dodge hopefully getting a rebuild on the engine with Shanafelt intake and Phillips dual exhaust this spring. My Studebaker will hopefully be getting some love in the garage as well in its transformation into a Salt Lake Race inspired creation.  Keep em moving, keep the craft inspired and inspiring.  Happy New Year!

[James_Douglas]

I think I am almost more concerned with the loss of knowledge than the parts.

 

I spent the fall reading everything I could find on the Powerflite.  What was interesting was the response I got from one of the acknowledged sources for parts and repair of transmissions that he had never heard of the items I had listed.  It makes we wonder what people are paying for when they go to these sources. In this particular case most of the items I asked about were in the big blue Motors books that almost everyone has on their shelves.

 

I think that people are correct in the fact that a lot of information was locked up inside peoples heads and when they are gone --so is that information.

 

A buddy of mine is dealing with a PITA problem with his 1958 Cad Eldo not shifting correct. Turn out that GM used two sets of carbs on those cars. A 4-bbl and the 3x2BBL. The problem is they also used some, but not all, different linkage to the carbs and also back down to the trans.  His car was a 3x2bbl car that was changed to a 4bbl and now back to 3x2bbl. Over the years the linkage was mixed and matched and the car never has downshifted correct.  Trying to sort this all out is a PITA as some of the differences in linkage are slight.

 

I also have been dealing with the issue of king pin bushings on the 1949. When I took the car apart, it had bushings top and bottom. I got a king pin set, NOS MOPAR, that had the correct part number on it and it had 4 bushings. I put that in. Some of you may have been reading about the castor or lack of it I have been dealing with.  I took off the spindle in August and the top bushing was galling on the outer side.  I had line honed it on a Sunnen honing machine. I thought it may have been a too good of a job not letting grease in...so I reamed it and got some bore bushing off. Now, I was going deep into a parts book and noticed int he description of that part number that the Master Parts Book says it should have an upper BEARING.

 

Well, that could make a difference in the castor having more of an effect of the spindle turns with less friction. As I dig through the books it seams that the only the "big" cars got the upper bearing in 1946 to 1948, however, a number of the smaller cars also got them in 1949 to 1954.  Another of those little details that can be lost to time.  What is interesting is the NOS MOPAR replacement set had all bushings.

 

My point is that the little things that can have a big effect are only now being captured by places like this web site.  I for one would like to see, and be willing to pay for, having the archives be made available as a searchable database off line. A DVD or CD that one can keep at the ready should forums like this one go away without notice.

 

In 20 to 40 more years, places like this will be the last respository of that knowledge and some poor guy will need it when we and this forum are all long gone.

 

James

[desoto1939]

Yes I also agree, so sad that the light at the end of tunnel is getting dimmer for the support of our antiques.  But at least our older mopar and also other makes still can be repaired because of the simplicity of these engines and components.  Jus think of the next set of cars that have all of the computers and electrical sensors that have to all work together.  These testing items will also be outdated and I do not think that the average car collecter is going to go out a purchase all of the computer equipment and the other point is do they even have the knowledge to run the equipment also keep it working.

 

This is the main reason why most of the single and diouble propr planes up in Alaska are the older vintage mechanical engines and not the digital information engines.  If they breakdown back in the bush area at least they can fix them with some mechanical skills with bailing wire, rope, tape and at least limp back home.  When a computer goes out on your plane you better hope you are near an airport.

 

Also think of the guys that have purchased all of those Mopar and high performance cars and engines and all of the modified equipment and do not know anything about these components.  Some of the people purchasing these cars do not even know how to replace a light bulb let alone fix anything these days.  This is in part due to the complexity that has happened with these cars.  When we all grew up we would see our dad's and uncles change the oil, replace batteries, replace spark plugs do tune-up, rotate tires, drain the antifrezze change the air filters, lube the front suspension put in generator or alternators as basic up keep.  When we watched our dads there was a transfer of basic automotive knowledge and also a great bonding experience with our dad's.

 

The now generation has lost all of these great xperiences and now they have to depend on someone else do even do the basic repairs.  This past couple of days my youngest daughter who is a Xmas baby and now 24 had a slow leak on her rear tire.  So guess what she went through a day of learning and a refresher on the job experience with me standing with her on removing the hub cap, blocking the wheels, loosening the lugnuts, jacking up the car, taking the lugnuts off the studs removing the wheel, putting on the spare and the reverse process, taking the tire to get fixed and then putting the repaired tire back on the car. 

 

During this entire time we had some time to bond with each other and now that I am almost 69 it was my best Xmas present being able to pass on knowledge and also knowing that my daughter can take the tire off the car safely.  During our conversation she was talking about one of her coworkers, a guy, and talking about cars and he is 27 years old and he said to her that he does not even know how to rotate the tires on his car. She said it is the basic  and simple task and that she can do it. So this goes to show that the younger generation is now set to have to pay for everything and they do not have any care to learn, have someone else do it for them because as parent we did not take the time to teach them things about life and how to beable to support them selves later on in life.

 

So in the long run we are better off than you think. We were taught how to diagnosis things in school and not just given things and have someone else do it for us.  Times have changed but we are better off then the next generation.  Sorry about going on but just think about what I wrote and reflect back on what our grandparents and parents knew about life and how they prepared us for our life's journey. I say thank you every day.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[mlozier76]

10 minutes ago, James_Douglas said:

I think I am almost more concerned with the loss of knowledge than the parts.

 

I spent the fall reading everything I could find on the Powerflite.  What was interesting was the response I got from one of the acknowledged sources for parts and repair of transmissions that he had never heard of the items I had listed.  It makes we wonder what people are paying for when they go to these sources. In this particular case most of the items I asked about were in the big blue Motors books that almost everyone has on their shelves.

 

I think that people are correct in the fact that a lot of information was locked up inside peoples heads and when they are gone --so is that information.

 

A buddy of mine is dealing with a PITA problem with his 1958 Cad Eldo not shifting correct. Turn out that GM used two sets of carbs on those cars. A 4-bbl and the 3x2BBL. The problem is they also used some, but not all, different linkage to the carbs and also back down to the trans.  His car was a 3x2bbl car that was changed to a 4bbl and now back to 3x2bbl. Over the years the linkage was mixed and matched and the car never has downshifted correct.  Trying to sort this all out is a PITA as some of the differences in linkage are slight.

 

I also have been dealing with the issue of king pin bushings on the 1949. When I took the car apart, it had bushings top and bottom. I got a king pin set, NOS MOPAR, that had the correct part number on it and it had 4 bushings. I put that in. Some of you may have been reading about the castor or lack of it I have been dealing with.  I took off the spindle in August and the top bushing was galling on the outer side.  I had line honed it on a Sunnen honing machine. I thought it may have been a too good of a job not letting grease in...so I reamed it and got some bore bushing off. Now, I was going deep into a parts book and noticed int he description of that part number that the Master Parts Book says it should have an upper BEARING.

 

Well, that could make a difference in the castor having more of an effect of the spindle turns with less friction. As I dig through the books it seams that the only the "big" cars got the upper bearing in 1946 to 1948, however, a number of the smaller cars also got them in 1949 to 1954.  Another of those little details that can be lost to time.  What is interesting is the NOS MOPAR replacement set had all bushings.

 

My point is that the little things that can have a big effect are only now being captured by places like this web site.  I for one would like to see, and be willing to pay for, having the archives be made available as a searchable database off line. A DVD or CD that one can keep at the ready should forums like this one go away without notice.

 

In 20 to 40 more years, places like this will be the last respository of that knowledge and some poor guy will need it when we and this forum are all long gone.

 

James

Is the "bearing" just a bushing as you said it was when you were reaming?  Sometimes its semantics when it comes to the manuals.  I work in heavy truck parts and have to decipher differences in language because of German and Spanish thought processes on words, not aligning with Americanisms.  Technically a bushing is a bearing, just not a roller bearing.  That is all I meant by that.  I have to think outside the box all the time at work to understand what the mechanics mean, and decipher it to parts guy speak and understand the mechanical engineers terminology, while reading an electrical engineers idea of a picture called a wiring diagram.  

[greg g]

Hey if they can keep them running in Havana, we should be able to adapt here. Not saying you want to put a 3 cylinder diesel from a Russian built tractor in your car but where there is a will, there is a way. If points dry up, put in electronic,  if mechanical fuel pumps disappear use an electric. If the swap to the power flite gets fiddly use a torqueflite or a 700r4.  Maybe keeping up appeaerences will take the place of keeping them true to original.

[desoto1939]

James. I read your comment about keeping a library of knowledge. Yes this is so important, but the bigger issue is that we are now also seeing that some of the major computer companies do not even included DVD or CD disk players in their laptops. They are now going with flash drives.

 

This is one of the main reasons why I have been collecting the automotive cross reference catalogs and parts catalogs over the years and scanning them on to CD. I also keep each page of the catalog in the plastic page insetrs so that the paper is also preserved for future reference.  As you stated you had wished that you had the foresight to have taken the old service manuals when you were young.

 

I collect these to pass along the info and so that antique car owners can find the specific parts at swap meets, but some people can not see the point just right now. They feel that the internet should have all of the information display for free and be available to them anytime any place, but that is not true reality.

 

Rich Hartung

[keithb7]

I agree on several points mentioned. I keep pushing myself to learn and do more to my old Mopars, myself. NOS parts have proven their worth to me. Most new reproduction parts only appear the same. They are not high quality parts. 

 

I sometimes think about the engine oil fed, fluid torque drive in my ‘53. Certainly its beyond my current level of experience. If it goes down, well I guess I’ll give it a shot too. Or kill it while trying to fix it. 

 

I have no interest in trying to find a local trusted, knowledgeable vintage car mechanic. We’ll get things done one way or another. With the support here, and a few guys in my local vintage car club it’ll keep running. 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by keithb7

[Sniper]

I have been teaching my son the basics on the Cambridge.   We are going to rebuild the carb and a Carter BB is about as basic a carb as you can get.  My thinking is that you cannot handle the fancy stuff if you dont know the basics.  Just like sports, knowing the fundamentals always make a difference.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is known that Mopar is not the favored brand in repop circles...Mopar themselves license are quite expensive to obtain and many times there is not enough sales/interest for the cost to do the deed.  

 

Parts quality is not as it should be, often small foot in the door companies filling this niche.  One has to be prepared for the closer maintenance intervals when stylizing these.

 

Retro fit often garners scorn here, but at the same time those offering the parts end up trashing as cost to ship even with a low purchase price limits transactions.  So often the very hobby we love we do not support properly and I know, can't buy and store everything.  This is a known tradeoff...

 

I would never look to a shop for these old cars, they are set up for the common current models as there are more on the road and as daily drivers subject to needs and folks willing to pay the price.  Same as the body shops are insurance driven collision repairs and the ever increase in cost of products supporting the in by 8 out by 5 they operate.  Other products at significantly lower cost but more working time required...these are what most hobby DIY's lean toward as there is not a drive to be repaired, primed, blocked and taped for paint in first 4 hours of the shift with the last 4 for paint, bake, buff and deliver.

 

One will have to be more self sufficient in the years to come or trade up to a model still supported.

[pflaming]

Plymouthy, well said. I am not a restorer, only a very novice repairer. I am not a Casper50 nor a Plymouth  Adams person of due detail. I am not a body repair nor a painter, thus an advocate of original patina because if a thorough paint task was REQUIRED I would never even start.

 

Yet by buying thrashed parts cars for a couple hundred dollars and via this forum and the internet, I can learn to do every myself at reasonable expense. 
 

i’ve  just finished fabricating a floor shifter (attached photo - nicer levers to be attached today) for the R10 overdrive which also attaches to a standard three speed. Did it for me, very demanding, lots of dead ends but it works. 
 

Point is, if there is a will, there is a way.  Owner of Phoenix B3B and 53 Suburban.

pflaming : Happy New Year to All 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by pflaming

[T120]

Hopefully,we will all find someone among those who are genuinely interested, to pass along the history and knowledge we have  of a vehicle that we've enjoyed owning and maintaining over the years...☺️  

[Jeff Balazs]

On a philosophical level this is so true. But on a real world level these old cars and trucks can and will continue to live on. And it is because of the way we built them back in the day. The stuff being built today on the other hand has a extremely limited shelf life. Most of it will not be around in 20 years.

Whoever dreamed up plastic engine parts and electronically controlled cars is directly responsible for this situation. Cracks me up every time I see a 10 year old BMW, Audi, Range Rover, etc........ that sold for big money when new and is now sitting in a wrecking yard because it costs a bloody fortune to keep on the road. And that is if you can even find the parts. I have a good buddy that has a repair shop and every day I take a walk through just to hear and see the completely "absurd engineering marvels" that have broken down. BMW should be required to change their adverts to say "The ultimate Leaking machine". What a joke this stuff is.

 

Honestly by direct comparison my 67 year old truck has been a piece of cake to keep on the road. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it is still on the road 30 years from now.

Jeff

[T120]

And, if in the event of a major catastrophe,(and you have to get out of Dodge fast),...trust your old MoPar..."My old Plymouth always runs" lol

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

On ……..Wouldn't surprise me at all if it is still on the road 30 years from now.

Jeff

 

 

Where we're going, we don't need any roads...….

 

 

[T120]

20 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 

 

Where we're going, we don't need any roads...….

 

 

And while they're only a few that come to mind, I hope we're not all travelling in the same direction...

[JBNeal]

I inherited Dad's '01 Ram 2500 QuadCab last year and have had H-E-double hockey sticks with the brakes, basically cuz the truck sat in a barn for 10 years...malfunctioning remanufactured hydroboost units, leaking new hoses, cracked reman.calipers, now intermittent sticking rear brakes...I've sunk over 135 hours into this beast and I still don't know if it'll pass inspection in a few weeks...I thought I was paying for quality parts, but it has really been a carp shoot trying to deal with the random ABS warning light, and this is for a modern truck that sold in big numbers and that has only been out of production for less than 2 decades...I shudder to think what's happening with replacement parts' quality for the low volume market of antique vehicles...I kinda gave up on getting help from the auto parts stores back in the 90s, but if the specialty suppliers are becoming a dead end, then we are on our own to supply part numbers, specs, etc...except we have the internets and online forums now, to share information, develop long-distance relationships, and exchange ideas to keep these machines alive for future generations...

 

I know where there is a nice collection of parts books at a local parts store that closed around 2000, but the relatives who inherited the place are not interested in selling anything piecemeal, nor are they interested in driving up 2 hours to open the place up for anyone to purchase large lots of stuff for cash...I peek thru the filthy windows every few months and notice that stuff is disappearing, so someone is systematically cleaning the place out...my fear is that all of them parts books on the counter, chock full of notes made by the previous owner, are gonna end up in the dumpsters when nobody is looking ☹

[pflaming]

I was about to dump what MOPAR parts I have, they don’t sell on eBay or craigs list but after reading this blog, I’m going to box every part and store. Who knows, possibly never worth much but they will exist.  last week I gave a part for the cost of freight and gained a friend!  Good trade! 

[keithb7]

19 minutes ago, pflaming said:

I was about to dump what MOPAR parts I have, they don’t sell on eBay or craigs list but after reading this blog, I’m going to box every part and store. Who knows, possibly never worth much but they will exist.  last week I gave a part for the cost of freight and gained a friend!  Good trade! 

 

I too have been buying up and hoarding old Mopar parts. If the prices are right. Storage space can become a challenge. 

I have a 1998 Ram Cummins 2500 quad cab 4x4. It's never been parked for long periods however I too, recently spend considerable time rebuilding the brakes extensively. Rock Auto is your friend with these big old trucks. Good deals on quality parts can be had.

Edited December 27, 2019 by keithb7

[wayfarer]

My 2 cents....

I guess that I might have gotten lucky with my 2002 2500 Cummins . Now have 267k on the clock and have had so little trouble that I oft times feel 'guilty'. Rotors replaced once, steering box once, but the trans has never been touched, still gets 20 mpg...on and on. Yup, got burned on the VP44 at 100k but a DDRP fixed that. Steering parts have been the biggest issue. I have replace the track bar 6 times due to crap quality so it is not just old parts that are difficult to source.  I really hope that my 2018 3500 with about a zillion computers lasts as long as I hope to.

As to keeping old parts for 'someone' to eventually need/want requires space to house, unless you are dealing just the small bits and pieces.  Just like kencombs, back around 1980 I bought, at auction, all of the parts dept inventory of a Mopar dealer that MaMopar shut down. I simply could not haul off everything. Yup, I got a lot. Filled my truck and small trailer and had to leave as much or more.  I still have a few 'old' pieces that I have not yet thrown away but I have tossed much simply due to not being able to find  'that' someone who needed/wanted 'it'. Now at 70, and planning one last physical move, I 'need' to find homes for a lot of stuff and not having much luck. No, I won't call in the scrappers for all of the Hemi engines and such but there will be items that don't move with me.

It would seem that you cannot generate new hobbyists if the basic desire is not there and the x-y-z generations only seem to care about their phones and these are the youngsters that are running the corporations that we want to rely on for quasi-quality parts...hhhmmmmm….doesn't look good when the bean counters are involved.

Nuff said.

 

Gary

[Sniper]

Hey!  I'm a Gen X'er.  Granted I am in the oldest group of them born two months into the group.  I have three millennials (all daughters) and a Gen Z'er too (son).  All of them have been out in the garage with me.  I learned what I know about these cars by working on mine and reading and asking questions, my old man was of the silent generation and boy was that true, he;s was silent about cars for the most part he didn't touch them.  My kids at least know their ways around a tool box.  Heck, my oldest was a mechanic in the Army.  But to be honest if my daughters have car problems they come to Dad to fix it, they are out there helping though.   The son isn't old enough to drive, yet.  Getting close though.

 

Funny story about my oldest, the Army mechanic.  After she got out she came back home and had a car issue then asked if I would look at it.  being Dad I said ok, then I remembered what she did in the Army.  Asked her "hey, weren't you a mechanic in the Army?  Why am I looking at it?  Do you want to borrow my tools?"  She said "I was a diesel mechanic, I don't know anything about gas engines."  I asked her if it was an engine problem and she said no, so I said "So, why am I looking at it?"  I got the look and she just asked me to look at it again.

 

Turns out her dome light wouldn't turn off so she pulled the bulb to keep it from killing the battery.  Once I explained to her that her headlight switch will also keep the bulb on if you rotate it past the detent then she was like "duh".  Problem solved in about two minutes.  Guess she didn't do electrics either, either that or Army vehicles don't have dome lights, I dunno I was Navy..

[Worden18]

70 years old (darn near), and my Meadowbrook is the most reliable vehicle I own.  My '18 Ram Ecodiesel was a piece of junk lemon.  I had to trade it off.  Yet my Meadowbrook will start and run when it's 100F or -33F.  Never had any major problems so far.  Simplicity is a big part of it.  These damn new cars are so complicated for no real reason in my opinion.  Technology has gotten us nowhere.  Okay, rant over ?