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Loren

265 Chrysler Industrial Project Engine

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1 hour ago, Sniper said:

With today's CAD/CAM setups once it's been programmed it can be "stocked" forever.  Just load the program, material and hit start.  That means a part number could be valid in perpetuity.

I suspect the real cost in rod bolts is the raw material (or semi-raw).   Most start as a high strength steel forging.  The machining is just a finish operation.  But, I agree with you, in that a lot of parts made of common sheet, rod, bar or shapes can be custom made on order.  That does entail a setup charge though.  When a producing machine is shut down to change tooling, programs or input stock, somebody is going to pay for that.  Available may not equate to affordable.

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The Isky guy called tonight. They got the cam and decided they had a better profile than the Max #1.

The Chrysler cam has a lot more lift than a Ford Flathead can tolerate so they found a grind that  would utilize it.

Cams with a lot of lift are a trade off to compression. You can't hog a lot off the head because sooner or later the valves will touch the head.

The Chrysler's big advantage is it's long stroke small bore. You get a modern compression ratio with pretty good area around the valve for breathing.

Flatheads have notoriously shrouded valves and that is why short stroke big bore overheads prevail now days.

The long stroke makes for a slow turning engine but it has great gobs of torque and while horse power sells cars, torque moves weight.

I am excited that one more piece is on the way.

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I just got back from the machine shop.

They looked at my crankshaft and pitched a replacement to me.

The idea of welding every journal and the thrust didn’t appeal to them even for the quoted price.

When I protested that they didn’t have a core, I was told they got two in today.

?

So I am waiting for word on what will happen next.

Another piece in the works.

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6 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

All of a sudden they have TWO 265 Cores or are they getting two 251's that they will weld and offset grind to make them 265's?

 

Lol

Not too likely.They’d have to stroke it 1/4 inch which is somewhat beyond what is economical.

I think the block is being cleaned so they can make one phone call and get all the answers they need to proceed.

 

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Tony does in fact do great work as anyone can see. However, he is taking a machinist job at an industrial business, not auto, and will no longer be doing engines. He did say he will still sell some parts and do consulting, but I wanted to cry when I could not send him my engine after seeing his work!

 

James.

Edited by James_Douglas

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There's an EDGY cylinder head on eBay right now. At last look it was up to $960.

There was also a Spitfire head.

Looking at both of those and a stock head, there doesn't seemed to be much difference.

Certainly not $960 worth. The current EDGY heads have the Navarro ledge over the exhaust valve which is intriguing but is it worth $1,400?

 

I used to get into big arguments with my Dad over parts. I tell him "You don't need that and you can spend your money better elsewhere."

To which he'd reply, "I don't care what I need, it's what I want that counts!"

I was an expert at pushing his buttons so I'd follow that with "Yeah I know if it don't go Chrome it!"

 

Anyway, I suspect that a stock head milled for compression is the most effective way to get a little more compression for the least amount of money.

Once I get the cam back I will check the valve clearance at maximum lift, then I know how much it can be safely milled.

Knowing that in spite of the fact there is clearance, there is a point of diminishing returns. You can reduce the intake flow on some engines by milling too much.

Ed Winfield said that 7.5 to 1 was the max for a Model A Ford. The Chrysler is a much different ball game. The heads have a lot more room around the valves and that 4 3/4 inch stroke gives plenty of time for cylinder filling.

Besides that stock iron head appeals to me. Everybody expects an aluminum head engine to go fast, but stock heads are under estimated.

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Finally this week some movement!

Isky called to say they were going to grind the cam but they would have to press the gear off. It wouldn't fit in the cam grinder with it on.

So I gave my permission. Should be interesting to get it back on. I am thinking I'll have to heat it but I will do some consultation first.

 

Next the machine shop called. They were going to bore the block .030. I protested a little because it was a standard bore and there wasn't much of a ledge. So they will "creep" up on it. Of course hogging it out to a size you know it will clean up is the easy way to do it. Taking the bare minimum means you have to go back and re-bore cylinders if the last one doesn't clean up. They found a .030/.030 crank they'd rather sell than weld my crank. They are going to do the bake/blast cleaning of the heads (I sent two) and the block. It's going to be expensive but I think worth it. Estimated at $3,200.

I've been cleaning out my garage to make space to build then install the engine. OMG! I've got a lot of crap!

All the Plymouth parts are being gathered in one place and it's very exciting!

 

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Loren i built a 265 .030 over and milled .085 off the head  and used stock cam with no interference . before i purchased an Edgy Head.

 

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My worry is "using up" a good block. I have two and one is sleeved and had .030 over bore pistons in it! Maybe I am being silly but I worked on two strokes and they would bore only as much as needed and only the cylinder that needed it.

The cam grind I am getting may have a little less lift than the Forklift cam grind, so I am not worried about clearance.

The Montana guys web site says there will be no more Edgy heads for "the foreseeable future" so I am not thinking about heads right now.

The object next on my radar is fitting it to the 1952 Suburban engine bay.

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On 1/26/2020 at 12:50 AM, Loren said:

Finally this week some movement!

Isky called to say they were going to grind the cam but they would have to press the gear off. It wouldn't fit in the cam grinder with it on.

So I gave my permission. Should be interesting to get it back on. I am thinking I'll have to heat it but I will do some consultation first.

 

 

 

 

 

Camshaft in the deep freeze, timing gear in the oven.........:D

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Hi Frank,

I have a long narrow tank made for bluing rifle barrels I am going to use to cool the cam.

Put about two inches of shipping styrofoam packing material under the tank, then put about 5 or more pounds of dry ice in it.

Drop the cam in and cover it with alcohol. As I recall that reduces the temp by about 125 degrees.

The gear I'll heat another way I haven't determined yet...maybe a propane torch.

All of this activity needs to be near my press if something goes wrong and I can't get it to seat.

Putting the gear on the crankshaft is another job. I might have the machine shop do that. (one of those "I can't look" things)

The last time I saw somebody put a gear on they heated it red hot with a torch. Not sure I want to see that.

 

I was reading on the FB page a question about putting a blower on a 6 cylinder.

Being familiar with this engine (and a Continental) I suggested the gear drive such as I have driven off the top of the cam gear where the hydraulic pump used to be.

A guy could use a Graham/Kaiser (Continental) centrifugal blower. The cam gear train is super stout and should last forever silently even with the load of a blower.

Only one problem, the cam turns backwards compared to the usual chain driven cam. You can tell which cam you have just by looking at it. The fuel pump lobe is at the rear (to make room for the hydraulic pump) and on the first cylinder the exhaust lobe leads the intake ( that tells you the direction it will turn).

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On 1/27/2020 at 3:21 AM, 40Club said:

Loren i built a 265 .030 over and milled .085 off the head  and used stock cam with no interference . before i purchased an Edgy Head.

 

.030 is nothing .125 now your talkin.

Going up to .080 is not a problem at all.

And the OP your .030 will most likely long outlast you.

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Lol

Reminds me of old life insurance ads where a piano is falling and one guy asks his friend, “Who's your insurance company?”

You know something I don’t?

Actually I’ve been trimming the number of projects I’ve taken on. Sad but true we can’t do them all.

This car is intended to be a daily driver for my golden years and I’d like to wear it out before I hang up the keys.

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19 minutes ago, Loren said:

Lol

Reminds me of old life insurance ads where a piano is falling and one guy asks his friend, “Who's your insurance company?”

You know something I don’t?

Actually I’ve been trimming the number of projects I’ve taken on. Sad but true we can’t do them all.

This car is intended to be a daily driver for my golden years and I’d like to wear it out before I hang up the keys.

Wear away, and at .030 you have 1 and possibly 2 rebores left.

They arent Chevy 350s yah know.

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For some of us, they haven't made a good Chevy (or at least one I'd own) since 1928! (last and best year of the four cylinder)

I used to race SCORE off-road and the high point of my racing career (satisfaction wise) was catching Larry Schweikofer's '57 Chevy (powered by a 350 V8) on the highway between Ensenada and Valle de Trinadad in the Baja 500 in a SAAB 96 V4 (107 cid).

I live in Northern Nevada now, one of the big events in Reno is "Hot August Nights" and I've never bothered to go. It seems that there is a "Check-off list" for Hot Rodding nowadays and SBC is the first box.

Guys will spend $20,000 on paint and bodywork then put a Chevy crate engine in the car, which to me wastes all that work and money.

Certain cars stick with you and you really don't care what other people think. I like my ole' Plymouth and I want it to be the best example of what a guy could have had in it's era. Canadian cars had 25 inch engines, Chryslers had 265 cid engines and you could get Overdrive from the dealer. So everything I want to do to my car is period correct, it just takes a work to get there.

 

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On 1/27/2020 at 9:13 AM, Loren said:

Hi Frank,

I have a long narrow tank made for bluing rifle barrels I am going to use to cool the cam.

Put about two inches of shipping styrofoam packing material under the tank, then put about 5 or more pounds of dry ice in it.

Drop the cam in and cover it with alcohol. As I recall that reduces the temp by about 125 degrees.

The gear I'll heat another way I haven't determined yet...maybe a propane torch.

All of this activity needs to be near my press if something goes wrong and I can't get it to seat.

Putting the gear on the crankshaft is another job. I might have the machine shop do that. (one of those "I can't look" things)

The last time I saw somebody put a gear on they heated it red hot with a torch. Not sure I want to see that.

 

I was reading on the FB page a question about putting a blower on a 6 cylinder.

Being familiar with this engine (and a Continental) I suggested the gear drive such as I have driven off the top of the cam gear where the hydraulic pump used to be.

A guy could use a Graham/Kaiser (Continental) centrifugal blower. The cam gear train is super stout and should last forever silently even with the load of a blower.

Only one problem, the cam turns backwards compared to the usual chain driven cam. You can tell which cam you have just by looking at it. The fuel pump lobe is at the rear (to make room for the hydraulic pump) and on the first cylinder the exhaust lobe leads the intake ( that tells you the direction it will turn).

As far as R&R cam and crank gears i have done them on and off engines....no heat just good quality tooling and dead on alignment on pulls and pushes of both the cam and cranl gears. 

The pics are of a Dodge 413 six engine

The cam gear is big..7-1/2" X 1-3/4" wide. Used a 10" wide OTC HD puller.....anti siezed all friction points...came off smooth and steady...went on the same way.

On the 4" diameter crank gear I used a 10 ton 2 jaw Posi-lok puller with jaw protector plates to protect the crank gear teeth.

Used proper sized grade 5 studs screwed into the crank and cam to push the gears dead straight on. Used oil/anti-seize mixture to prevent galling on assembly.

The gears are on tight and go on tight...but go on smooth and tight. 

I have a press  to do this but the crank alone is 130lbs ....too heavy to lift. I did this engine as the shop manual specified....I've done two of these big cam and crank jobs.

Your cam install and crank gear should be much easier as the gears are much smaller.

Sometimes heat can create galling...but do what ya gotta do.

This kinda work is really not that complicated with mechanical aptitude and good tooling.

Removing the badly worn original Toll gate 413  cam gear (2).JPG

413 Cam Gear tourqed to 60 LBS as per 1954 DT shop manual (2).JPG

Removing the badly worn original Toll gate 413  cam gear (4).JPG

Installing my old worn tollgate 413 cam gear on cali industrial engine.JPG

413 Cali Cam Crank Gear swap to my Ore Engine (24).JPG

Removing my badly worn original 413 crank gear (4).JPG

Installing my worn tollgate worn crank gear on cali 413 engine (3).JPG

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That is one impressive gear set!

On mine the crank gear has two threaded holes but the cam gear is solid with no holes at all.

The cam should be here in the next few days (I hope).

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There is no noise on the 413 timing gears...a well engineered engine.

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I am liking my Forklift engine 265 more and more!

I’ve come to dislike timing chains over the years. One thing I learned the hard way is that changing just the chain is only a temporary fix.

If you want it to last you’ve got to change everything.

Gears are by far the best way to go...with one exception. They should be all steel.

Helical cut gears are silent and don’t vibrate like straight cut gears.

The more you look at Mopar stuff the better you like it.

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You can file this under "The one that got away!"

Somebody snatched a prize away from me and I hope they appreciate it. They certainly paid for it!

In an eBay auction I found this Portland, OR made manifold that fit two 97s!

Just exactly what I was looking for. Anyway the price hovered at $255 till I did my usual bid pattern with 30 seconds left on the clock.

The typical price for an Edmunds 2 x 1 manifold is around $600. Most start there. I figured using my personal proprietary algorithm that the premium vs unknown quantity vs activity vs fudge factor would be around $800 and bid it that way. It sold for $810.

I'd like to know how far the other bidder was willing to go as I might have underestimated it's value.

I did score a small consolation prize of a mis-labeled Edmunds 2 x 1 manifold an hour later for $412.77

 

s-l1600.jpg

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According to this article Eddy Edmunds worked for Bill Shanafelt around 46 before he started his own company.......

So It is probably a rarer manifold than an actual Edmunds! Not a concilation prize at all....:)

http://myflatheadford.com/shanafelt-intakes-aka-emerson-payne/

Shanafelt-Racing-Equipment-1946.jpg

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