51 B3B build thread - after all these years

[bkahler]

I didn't have the opportunity to work on the truck as much as I had originally planned for this weekend.  The opportunity arose for me to dispose of my above ground pool so this Friday I spent the day dismantling and loading the pool bits and pieces on the new owners trailer.  Unfortunately this effort pretty much wiped me out and I spent more time recovering than working on what I wanted to 

 

But a few things did get accomplished.  The windshield interior molding is now installed and looks good.  I also installed the parking brake cable.  I was somewhat worried about whether the cable would fit properly since the truck has dual exhaust down pipes.  It turns out the cable routes perfectly around the rear down pipe.  That took care of a big worry

 

 

 

 

I also spent time prepping the vent windows for installation in the doors.  I bought the wing window rubber gaskets back in 1998 from Roberts.  The rubber was still nice and pliable which was a big relief.  It was definitely a struggle getting the rubber into the frame and I have a nice puncture wound in the palm of my hand for my efforts!  

 

 

Brad

[bkahler]

Progress towards starting the engine ground to a halt last May due to a small leak in the newly re-cored radiator.  So, it's been a long time with no real progress made other than the repainting of the doors, fenders, hoods, etc.  Still to paint are the cab and the bed sides.  Everything else has now been repainted and ready to install.  The only thing keeping the cab from being re-painted is transporting the truck to the paint shop.  The goal had been and still is to drive the truck from my garage to the paint shop about 8 miles away.  

 

Before discovering the coolant leak I was just hours away from trying to start the engine for the first time.  The leak meant I had to remove the radiator for repairs.   Recently I tried resoldering the seam myself but failed miserably.  What had been a very small leak was now a small waterfall  

 

Sadly, the shop that did the re-core has since closed which meant I had to find a new shop.  Yesterday I dropped the radiator off at a new shop and if they hold to their promise, I should be able to pick up the radiator Friday.  I'll paint it this weekend and with luck install it before the weekend is over.

 

The only other thing that needs to occur before driving to the paint shop is installing the seat belts.  The truck doesn't have doors yet, so I'd feel more comfortable if I had something keeping me inside the cab ?  The trip will be on winding twisty back roads so staying inside the cab could be difficult.

 

More to come.....

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by bkahler

[Los_Control]

Sounds like a adventure getting to the painter  

I honestly do not know where the closest radiator shop to me would be .... they are a dying breed. Glad you have one.

Looking forward to your progress.

 

I like to think I'm going forward on my project. I'm trying to push hard to get to a goal of having brakes & the welding finished ... for now.

Then it is going to the back of the list so I can work on the wife car again.

 

Just saying as a hobby, these trucks are fun .... sometimes life gets in the way and we need to step away for awhile, get back to it later.

We do what we can or what we want ..... is no running race to get to the finish.

 

[bkahler]

Radiator is now installed.

 

Picked it up Friday, painted that afternoon and installed it Saturday morning.  So far I don't seem to have any coolant system leaks so it looks like it's a go to try and start the engine later this morning.  Assuming I get it started I'll spend the afternoon getting the seatbelts installed.  

 

Wish me luck.... 

 

 

 

[Los_Control]

Good luck buddy, will be wondering how it goes 

 

[bkahler]

This turned out to be one strange day. Rolled the truck outside, got things organized and waited for a friend to show up, I figured it would be good to have someone watching things as I pressed the starter pedal.  Well to make a long story short, it wouldn't start.  Not even a pop.  At that point we started looking things over by checking for spark on the first plug wire, nothing, not even a small spark.  Pulled the distributor cap and verified the rotor was turning, yep it was.

 

Next we checked for spark by pulling the coil wire from the distributor cap and still got nothing.  Started looking inside the distributor and noticed that the wire from the terminal on the outside of the distributor to the points was missing.  Naturally this was the problem, right?    

 

Well, I made up a small jumper wire with terminals and installed it and figured it would start now.  Nope, not even a pop 

 

Pulled the points and sanded them and reinstalled and although you could see a really small spark when opening the points the engine still wouldn't fire.  At this point we gave up and pushed the truck back into the garage.  After stewing on things for an hour or so I went looking for my spare OEM coil.  I found it and it had the remnants of the old coil wire stuck in the top so I pulled it out.  Looking closer at the coil I realized the opening is rather deep.  At this point the light bulb went off and I went and looked at the coil in the truck.  Surprise, surprise, I was able to push the coil wire about 3/8" deeper into the coil 

 

So at this point I pushed the truck back outside, turned the ignition and and hit the starter.  You can probably guess the rest by now.  The engine started right up and sounded great.  It was actually running at around 2300 rpm which is what I wanted in order to break-in the cam.  Let it run for 20 minutes and then started backing the idle screws off on the carburetors.  Here's a video of the engine start after I got the idle down to around 1100 rpm.  

 

 Engine Start Video

 

Running temp at 2300 rpm was 170 using a laser gun.  Oil pressure on the gauge was reading around 45-50 psi.  The water temp on the gauge was slightly over half way.  The numbers were the same after I backed the idle off to 1100 rpm.  The overflow tube was dribbling out a little bit of coolant while it was running so I don't know if I over filled the radiator or what might be causing that.  That's a problem for another day.

 

I couldn't really tell if the generator was working or not.  The battery maintained 12.71 volts the whole time it was running so it might be producing some current but not much.  

 

I definitely have to do some adjusting on the carburetor linkage.  I couldn't get the idle below 1100 and I'm not sure why.  I suspect the dual carburetor setup is going to be interesting to try and get adjusted properly.  

 

I've got a few other video snippets I'll be uploading but I have to do some editing because they are not that great.  I wasn't expecting the engine to start so I didn't have the camera ready when it did!  

 

Ok, on to the next problem.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[billrigsby]

 

Good Deal!

Sounds Great! 

 

Need to get back on mine this Summer,

after a Kitchen, partial Bath and Utility Closet remodel this Winter.

 

When I left off, it was a failed (NEW) oil pump.  ?

[Los_Control]

Sounds like a great day. The engine really sounds smooth.

I'm still waiting to hear how the trip to the paint shop goes with no doors on 

 

Sounds scary    Then I was thinking years ago when I had my CJ5 jeep.

I drove it often with no doors, a bikini top for shade & a lap belt.

I do not think I would do it without a seat belt, but driving with no doors is a common thing others do all the time.

[bkahler]

17 hours ago, billrigsby said:

 

Good Deal!

Sounds Great! 

 

Need to get back on mine this Summer,

after a Kitchen, partial Bath and Utility Closet remodel this Winter.

 

When I left off, it was a failed (NEW) oil pump.  ?

 

I'm relieved to say I had good oil pressure.  After reading all of the oil pump problems last year it made me somewhat nervous.  I bought the pump 22 years ago and it was the high volume high dollar pump.  Money well spent

 

[bkahler]

15 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Sounds like a great day. The engine really sounds smooth.

I'm still waiting to hear how the trip to the paint shop goes with no doors on 

 

Sounds scary    Then I was thinking years ago when I had my CJ5 jeep.

I drove it often with no doors, a bikini top for shade & a lap belt.

I do not think I would do it without a seat belt, but driving with no doors is a common thing others do all the time.

 

The trip is still a week or two away.  He's finishing up the rear fenders and then needs to reorganize his shop to fit the truck inside.  

 

Seat belt installation is now at the top of the list of things to get done.

 

Back in the 80s when I had my CJ5 I don't remember ever using seat belts even with the top down and no doors.  However, back then I was invincible, now not so much

 

[billrigsby]

7 minutes ago, bkahler said:

 

I'm relieved to say I had good oil pressure.  After reading all of the oil pump problems last year it made me somewhat nervous.  I bought the pump 22 years ago and it was the high volume high dollar pump.  Money well spent

 

 

Might look into that, I thing the VPW folks sell them, I also have 3 used originals to look over.

[billrigsby]

5 minutes ago, bkahler said:

 

Back in the 80s when I had my CJ5 I don't remember ever using seat belts even with the top down and no doors.  However, back then I was invincible, now not so much

 

 

Likewise, my 50 CJ3A had no belts, an 'oh crap' handle for the passenger and the wheel for me.

Also had a Vortec V6 and an Overdrive bolted to the original 3 speed, got scary now and again!

[bkahler]

VPW is where I bought my High Volume oil pump for $50 in 1998.  I don't remember how much lower the cheaper option was but my engine builder recommended the HV pump so that's what I went with.  

 

Edit:  Just checked VPWs price for the high volume pump...$249  

 

Ouch!

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by bkahler

[bkahler]

I might actually have two issues causing the throttle linkage to stick.  The first is the seal but the second might be caused by the rubber cab mounts.  I didn't tighten down the cab bolts until after I completed the throttle linkage installation.  I know for a fact the pedal was sticking slightly from day one, but what I found last night was the pivot shaft that runs across the back of the block is now rubbing the bottom of the floorboard where the pivot arm points up.  I never checked the linkage actuation after that tightening the cab bolts.  

 

I didn't get a picture of the rubbing but it's not just a slight rubbing, the arm actually gets stuck against the floorboard.  The rubber mounts are new and were purchased from Vic's.  I don't remember if I compared them new mounts to the old mounts for height difference.  Before tightening the bolts I'm sure I had at least 1/8" to 1/4" clearance on the pivot arm.  

 

Currently my plan is to loosen the cab mounting bolts to see if the rubber relaxes enough to eliminate the interference.  If it does, then I need to decide whether to use steel washers to increase the height or use the old rubber mounts.  Currently I'm leaning towards steel washers.

 

Brad

 

[Los_Control]

I wonder if your linkage is the same as mine?

I'm thinking I would be tempted to twist the bracket & point it down some?

Pretty beefy bracket, with the right persuasion it will move  

 

Looking at mine, I may have a issue also, the pivot point appears to be higher then the floor. I dunno.

 

I also wonder if new rubber motor mounts might change the height of the engine, or a combination of motor & cab mounts.

If you change the cab height, that might mess with fender & hood alignment.

Could be a simple project using shims .... or a can of worms.

 

Removing the toe board then changing the angle on the bracket might be another option.

 

 

[ggdad1951]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

I wonder if your linkage is the same as mine?

I'm thinking I would be tempted to twist the bracket & point it down some?

Pretty beefy bracket, with the right persuasion it will move  

 

Looking at mine, I may have a issue also, the pivot point appears to be higher then the floor. I dunno.

 

I also wonder if new rubber motor mounts might change the height of the engine, or a combination of motor & cab mounts.

If you change the cab height, that might mess with fender & hood alignment.

Could be a simple project using shims .... or a can of worms.

 

Removing the toe board then changing the angle on the bracket might be another option.

 

 

 

 

That pivot point is forward of the toe boards and should not be any issue.

[ggdad1951]

2 hours ago, bkahler said:

I might actually have two issues causing the throttle linkage to stick.  The first is the seal but the second might be caused by the rubber cab mounts.  I didn't tighten down the cab bolts until after I completed the throttle linkage installation.  I know for a fact the pedal was sticking slightly from day one, but what I found last night was the pivot shaft that runs across the back of the block is now rubbing the bottom of the floorboard where the pivot arm points up.  I never checked the linkage actuation after that tightening the cab bolts.  

 

I didn't get a picture of the rubbing but it's not just a slight rubbing, the arm actually gets stuck against the floorboard.  The rubber mounts are new and were purchased from Vic's.  I don't remember if I compared them new mounts to the old mounts for height difference.  Before tightening the bolts I'm sure I had at least 1/8" to 1/4" clearance on the pivot arm.  

 

Currently my plan is to loosen the cab mounting bolts to see if the rubber relaxes enough to eliminate the interference.  If it does, then I need to decide whether to use steel washers to increase the height or use the old rubber mounts.  Currently I'm leaning towards steel washers.

 

Brad

 

 

There should be plenty of room up there, nothing should be rubbing.  Spacing the cab up/checking the front to back loaction of the cab should clear up any issues.

[bkahler]

The pivot point is definitely under the toe board (angled portion).  I spent a lot of time looking at that pivot point when I was fabricating the linkage.  Clearance definitely wasn't an issue at the time.  Now that the cab is bolted down the arm is hitting.  

 

At this point I'm just guessing but my thinking is the rubber collapsed or squished down, possibly due to the rubber not being the same durometer as the original rubber.  The new ones may also be shorter than the originals to begin with.  Tonight (or real soon now!) I will loosen the cab bolts and see if the issue goes away.  

 

Mark, since you've been doing cab work on your truck, can you tell me whether or not the cab sits parallel to the frame?  I'm assuming it does which would make it a lot easier to create spacers to raise it to the required height.

 

Los, I'd really not like to mess with the linkage.  Other than cleaning it, it's in the same condition it was when it came off the truck years ago.

 

I'll know more this evening.

[Dave72dt]

According to the work I did on my frame, they do run parallel.  I had also found the LF body mount had been bent down and out a bit.  The sides at the corner of the mount had bowed out.

[Los_Control]

Just now, ggdad1951 said:

That pivot point is forward of the toe boards and should not be any issue.

I will say I have never installed my toe boards. Looking at that pivot point and it can be a optical illusion ... it does look like it is past the floor level. Could be a potential problem. .... That area looks close.

 

Now I see @bkahler other post, raising the cab now is not really a issue because I thought he had the fenders on already.

 

The only thing I could add, I would want to be sure I had plenty of clearance.

In the future the rubber cab mounts may harden and shrink and you will be revisiting the same issue down the road.

I'm just guessing, I think I would want at least 1/2" clearance ... maybe more.  I would not be happy with a 1/4" clearance.

With new mounts that may settle in time.

 

BUUUTT, That would mead raising the cab at least a 1/2" now since you are already rubbing.

That may be a issue when bolting on the fenders .... Maybe you actually need the front end bolted on now. You might find the cab wants to come up a 1/2" so everything lines up???? Deal with body alignment first.

 

I'm guessing I would just ignore this problem at this time & assemble the rest of the body.

I'm not sure if it is even possible to make things exactly like they were first produced, using aftermarket parts.

 

Get your stump out, grind a little dish into it ... then hit your toe board with a hammer.

You can take your time and create a 1/2" dent into the toe board that looks factory .... get on with your day.

 

Fender, door, hood alignment is more important at this stage.

 

[Dave72dt]

What's the condition of your front motor mount?  An old, hardened front mount and fresh rear mounts could also affect it's position.

[Merle Coggins]

Once you correct the clearance issue I would also recommend that you add some dry lube to all of the contact points on the linkage. I have found that over time my throttle will start to hang up a little. I'll get out my can of spray lube and hit all of the contact points and all will be good again for a while. 

[bkahler]

16 hours ago, Dave72dt said:

According to the work I did on my frame, they do run parallel.  I had also found the LF body mount had been bent down and out a bit.  The sides at the corner of the mount had bowed out.

 

Dave, you hit the nail on the head with your body mount comment.  I only looked at the two front mounts and they are both sagging.  The drivers side looks to be about 3/16" low and the passenger side is about 5/16" low.  You can see in the pictures below just how bad the sagging is.   Last night I loosened all of the cab mounting bolts and there was very little change in cab height.  The pedal arm still slightly rubbed the bottom of the toe board.  I'm sure the added weight of the seats now being in the cab aren't helping anything either.  

 

Drivers side:

 

 

Passenger size:

 

 

The passenger side cab sheet metal is actually touching the frame support arm causing a slight crease.

 

 

I compared the old rubber mounts to the originals and the new ones are the same height or slightly taller.  I will be sticking with the new rubber mounts.  

 

I think my plan of attack will be to determine just how much sag is present in each corner and machine spacers equal to the amount of sag in each corner.  In theory this should raise the cab back to it's original height.  I would assume this would also level out the cab properly.

 

Adding the spacers should also eliminate any issue with the throttle linkage hitting the toe board.

 

It seems like I take two steps forward on this truck and then one step back 

[ggdad1951]

yah, cab should sit "parallel" to the frame (with the larger tollerances of the day).   I'll try to get some pics of that area on FEF later today.

[bkahler]

16 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I will say I have never installed my toe boards. Looking at that pivot point and it can be a optical illusion ... it does look like it is past the floor level. Could be a potential problem. .... That area looks close.

 

Now I see @bkahler other post, raising the cab now is not really a issue because I thought he had the fenders on already.

 

The only thing I could add, I would want to be sure I had plenty of clearance.

In the future the rubber cab mounts may harden and shrink and you will be revisiting the same issue down the road.

I'm just guessing, I think I would want at least 1/2" clearance ... maybe more.  I would not be happy with a 1/4" clearance.

With new mounts that may settle in time.

 

BUUUTT, That would mead raising the cab at least a 1/2" now since you are already rubbing.

That may be a issue when bolting on the fenders .... Maybe you actually need the front end bolted on now. You might find the cab wants to come up a 1/2" so everything lines up???? Deal with body alignment first.

 

I'm guessing I would just ignore this problem at this time & assemble the rest of the body.

I'm not sure if it is even possible to make things exactly like they were first produced, using aftermarket parts.

 

Get your stump out, grind a little dish into it ... then hit your toe board with a hammer.

You can take your time and create a 1/2" dent into the toe board that looks factory .... get on with your day.

 

Fender, door, hood alignment is more important at this stage.

 

 

My thoughts on the clearance issue are pretty straight forward.  I checked the thickness of the new rubber donuts and found the new ones are a little thicker than the original donuts.  That measurement was taken while the new ones were still clamped in place by the cab mounting bolts.  

 

At this point the only variable would be the amount of sag in the frame support arms for each corner of the cab.  My plan is to calculate the amount that each frame support arm has sagged and fabricate a spacer to make up that difference.  In theory once those spacers are installed the cab should be really close (or slightly higher) than the original design height.  

 

Off hand, I can't think of a reason why this process wouldn't work.

 

I'd like to get this work done before any other sheet metal is installed so I have a fixed foundation to build on.  Since I can't drive the truck without the throttle working properly and I can't get the throttle working properly until the cab is raised, guess what I'll be working on next