No timing marks on harmonic balancer..

[Cold Blue]

The 218 is now finished with its' makeover! I am quite pleased with the results. Boy, did it need it. The engine front mount was a piece of radiator hose; the carb linkage was a cobbed-up affair at best; all hoses were pitiful; the dizzy was wired thru a hole drilled in the cap; the dizzy port was not even used; wiring in the dizzy from the port to the points was missing entirely; wires went everywhere that were not needed; the cooling system was clogged with rust and sediment; the spark plug wire insulation was mostly gone; there was no shut-off valve for the heater; the carbs leaked terribly and were rebuilt; the clutch/flywheel cover was missing; choke and throttle cables were toast; the vacuum advance was replaced; (the old one's diaphram was badly cracked, therfore a vacuum leak and poor acceleration). Probably more things, but that's all I can think of right now. A before and after picture is provided to show the transformation. She runs like a top!!!

 

One last thing to sort out...there are no timing marks on the harmonic balancer! Just a white blob of paint. My timing light shows the pointer centering up on the white blob of paint, but there is no accuracy there. Was going to make a fine line on the balancer to show TDC, but I do not know how to make more marks to show advanced or retarded degrees. You guys got any ideas? I think I have two options. Option one: She runs great as is, just live with it. Listen for pinging. Option 2 - buy and install a new balancer that has timing marks on it. Thanks!! (A photo of the balancer is attached, showing the blob of paint.)

[desoto1939]

Have you tried to use some sandpaper on the area where the white mark is on your vibration dampener. You might find that the lines are there but they have been covered over by rust and oil and other things.

 

If the white dot is a good reference and the engine runs well at that indicator then I would just then time it to the white dot. You do have a reference point and then can time by advancing or retarding the dizzy as you feel necessary.  Also why spend the extra money for a new and or even repaired vibration dampened while this one is working correctly.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

 

Rich Hartung

[kencombs]

Just make your own marks.  Once TDC is located you can measure the circumference of the balancer and divide by 360.  That provides the length of one degree.  Then user your measurement to mark the desired number of increments.

[Plymouthy Adams]

The only accurate means you have to mark that balancer if you cannot find the marks is with a timing wheel, piston stop and a walking through the steps to  find absolute TDC ..there are so many degrees at just either side of TDC that shows no appreciable movement that anything less is a TOTAL GUESS

[Cold Blue]

Thanks guys! I so appreciate everyone's comments. I think I will follow desoto1939's advice. The 218 is running really well right now - I don't have any complaints. I have looked really closely to see if there were any marks that may be hidden, but there are none. Plymouthy is right - to find absolute TDC is a multi-faceted exercise, which at this point, I don't think I want to tackle. And I may be wrong, but it seems like these old flatheads are not near as sensitive to adjustments as the V8 muscle car engines I worked on as a teenager back in the 60's. With all the things I have replaced, repaired, and properly adjusted on the 218, it runs much better, but it did run kinda good before, which was to my amazement. It had vacuum leaks everywhere, the dizzy was a mess, the carbs terribly out of sync, leaking, and poorly adjusted, and it still motored on down the road!  Thanks again!!

[soth122003]

Rich is probably right. A light sanding with emery cloth should reveal the timing marks. Plymouthy is also right that marking the balancer correctly is a pain. But Coldblue you kinda hit the nail on the head. These old flat heads are nowhere near as sensitive as the muscle cars. Marking your own timing marks is not to hard. Just pull the sparkplugs  and the pipe plug at no. 6, use a piece of coat hanger about 12-16 inches long in the pipe plug, rotate the engine with your thumb over the no.1 plug hole until you feel the pressure build up and watch the coat hanger. When it tops out and starts to go back down just find the highest point of travel and mark the balancer. Have someone send you the increment measurements of the marks from zero from another balancer and use your zero mark as a starting point and add the degree marks.

 

Then you can use the marks to time the engine with a light and get it very close. Then use a vacuum gage or dwell meter to fine tune the engine. If you haven't rebuilt the engine with new parts, this method will take into account the wear and age of the engine bearings, cam shaft and crankshaft wear as well as the timing chain slop.

 

Joe Lee

[Cold Blue]

8 hours ago, soth122003 said:

Rich is probably right. A light sanding with emery cloth should reveal the timing marks. Plymouthy is also right that marking the balancer correctly is a pain. But Coldblue you kinda hit the nail on the head. These old flat heads are nowhere near as sensitive as the muscle cars. Marking your own timing marks is not to hard. Just pull the sparkplugs  and the pipe plug at no. 6, use a piece of coat hanger about 12-16 inches long in the pipe plug, rotate the engine with your thumb over the no.1 plug hole until you feel the pressure build up and watch the coat hanger. When it tops out and starts to go back down just find the highest point of travel and mark the balancer. Have someone send you the increment measurements of the marks from zero from another balancer and use your zero mark as a starting point and add the degree marks.

 

Then you can use the marks to time the engine with a light and get it very close. Then use a vacuum gage or dwell meter to fine tune the engine. If you haven't rebuilt the engine with new parts, this method will take into account the wear and age of the engine bearings, cam shaft and crankshaft wear as well as the timing chain slop.

 

Joe Lee

Hey Joe - (reminds me of a Jimmy Hendricks song...) School me on using a dwell meter to fine tune the engine. I have a dwell meter I got back in the 60's to set the points on my Chevy 409 thru a sliding window on the dizzy cap, using a special hex head screwdriver. But I don't have a clue on how to use the meter on a flathead. It taint got a window on the dizzy cap...I've got a vacuum gauge too. I suspect you hook it up to a port on the side of the intake and adjust the carb mixture screws to get it to pull the highest vacuum?  Thanks!!!

[Plymouthy Adams]

you remove the cap and rotor and while spinning the engine as to start...you adjust the gap of the points to obtain the specified dwell reading....dwell is the time the points stay closed.....ensures proper saturation of the coil and is expressed as a duty cycle...

[Cold Blue]

7 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

you remove the cap and rotor and while spinning the engine as to start...you adjust the gap of the points to obtain the specified dwell reading....dwell is the time the points stay closed.....ensures proper saturation of the coil and is expressed as a duty cycle...

Thanks Plymouthy. You wouldn't happen to know the specified dwell setting for a 218 would you?

[Plymouthy Adams]

.020 on a six cylinder should correlate to 39

[Cold Blue]

5 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

.020 on a six cylinder should correlate to 39

39 degrees - I will check it in the morning. Thanks!!

[Plymouthy Adams]

yes, sorry…...I left off the word degrees......

[soth122003]

I don't have a dwell meter. But I do have a vacuum gage. Set the fuel mix settings and idle screws first according to the book, then hook the vacuum gage to an intake port and adjust the dizzy to the highest vacuum setting and back off by about 1-2 inches of mercury. then fiddle with the air mix screw. After all that check the timing mark and see where it sets. You can set the timing to zero degrees, but with the slop of an old engine, I believe the vacuum gage gives the best timing results. If you set the vacuum at its highest setting the engine will ping at higher rpms under load. Mine is set at about 20 inches of mercury but the highest I can set it is 22 and the engine pings at speed. When mine was all said and done the timing light shows 0 degrees on the balancer.

 

Joe Lee

[Don Coatney]

I use an electric drill motor to spin the distributor and set the dwell.

 

[Cold Blue]

Too cool Don! I will use your method! Thanks! 

[Plymouthy Adams]

my mark were not readily visible till I cleaned the balancer....at which time I highlighted them for greater visibility...hope you find yours...am sure they are there.....

 

 

[Los_Control]

16 minutes ago, Cold Blue said:

Too cool Don! I will use your method! Thanks!

I do not see this method approved in the official mopar manual,  I suggest to follow the manual!   ???

 

Is a great idea.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you don't need no stinking manual...write your own pages.....

[HotRodTractor]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

you don't need no stinking manual...write your own pages.....

 

Manuals are just a collection of manufacturer's opinions on how things should be done. lol

[Cold Blue]

Well, I examined the harmonic balancer its full perimeter. Put a high intensity light on it while examining. I can truthfully say "There ain't no danged timing marks on the dad-gummed thing". So I am going to find TDC and make a mark myself. May not be precisely on the money, but with a flathead, I think that will be close enough.

[Plymouthy Adams]

well if close is good....you can forgo the timing wheel....but I do feel a piston stop in #6 hole and rotate one direction till stop...mark spot on damper, rotate backwards to stop...mark again......split the difference with an accurate tape measure....scibe your line (remember between the shorter side of the marks for TDC)....just remember....you are not absolute...just throwing horseshoes...

Edited April 1, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[soth122003]

Hey Cold, When you examined the balancer did you wire brush it? I'd use a brass brush, the tooth brush size one. Also look at the front and back edge for the marks as well. Yours looks pretty pitted on the surface so they may not show.

 

Joe Lee

[Cold Blue]

10 minutes ago, soth122003 said:

Hey Cold, When you examined the balancer did you wire brush it? I'd use a brass brush, the tooth brush size one. Also look at the front and back edge for the marks as well. Yours looks pretty pitted on the surface so they may not show.

 

Joe Lee

Joe - I used a brass wire brush on it - but no dice. I did't look at the front or back edges - I will do that. I can see a new harmonic balancer in my future....

[9 foot box]

   When I got my P15, it had a vibration when rev'd up. I pulled the harmonic pulley and put a non-harmonic on, the vibration went away. I sent the pulley to Damper Doctor in Redding, CA. If you ever decide to have it dialed back in, I think his shop could fix you right up. I'd never thought much about damper pulley's, if they looked OK, put it back on. Torque or belt tension, maybe a froze-up water pump had changed my apparently good pulley.

[soth122003]

I just thought of this. Is the balancer keyed to the crankshaft? and if so wouldn't the timing marks be directly above the key slot on the balancer? Reason I ask is I have never pulled one before. Logic is that the marks have to align with the crankshafts no.1 piston connecting rod bearing every time you remove and reinstall the balancer to ensure that the timing marks are in the same place every time. If so, remove the nut and follow the key up to make your marks. 

This is just my guess. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Joe Lee