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My First Car -- P15 1947 Plymouth Deluxe


NickPickToo
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Dirty little secret?  Now some mud ? 

 

It will be a bit before I can share what it finally looks like because there are a few more spots like this that we don't plan to fabricate.

 

IMG_0742.jpg

Edited by NickPickToo
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I was afraid it would crack with road vibration and bumps. Even with fiber glass filler.

So I did a cut and fab, also use Kemps restorations for the latch plate.

2079670194_trunkcutoutsm.jpg.2bf89267b3e3780656e665ae10976f44.jpg364956646_trunkpaintedsm.jpg.3bb0aba866ce84a13a79f6772e13a3a7.jpg

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On 6/24/2020 at 6:13 PM, NickPickToo said:

Dirty little secret?  Now some mud ? 

 

It will be a bit before I can share what it finally looks like because there are a few more spots like this that we don't plan to fabricate.

 

IMG_0742.jpg

If you don't cut it out and weld new stuff in the rust will be back.  Maybe not an issue in the fender well but anything visible will bubble back up shortly.

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So just to get this strait once and for all...

  • Mud (filler) is for bridging attachment points and cleaning up contour and curve as needed.  
  • Actual steel needs to replace the crunchy sections.
  • POR 15 is good on surface areas that are not easily reached with a grinder/sander, but where the underlying steal is still solid.
  • Undercoating is just that.  Put it on the underside only after the rest is cleaned up
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POR15 is an amazing product and  has it uses....however it is most often use by many as an eliminator to applied elbow grease.  There is very little POR15 will do/hide that a bit of labor will not fix properly.  Phosphoric acid is my single most common go-to for rust busting.  Phosphoric acid can be accelerated but I will not go into that here as many cut corner as it is and safety most likely would be compromised by many users.  Phosphoric acid as bought across the counter is often not concentrated enough to handle the average body repair and sold mainly in light concentrate as a prep wipe only.  I buy mine across the counter at 55% and can get it commercially at 85%.    Most of the solution from the store as I said are very weak solution and cost big coin...yet the 55% is just 13.00 a gallon.   You don't need to be related to Einstein to do that math.   My favorite POR15 product is the patch product in tube...great for sealing small gaps when fitting panels and holds better than seam sealer.  It is perfect for drip rails.   Do  your research, read a few papers, excellent product.  

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2 hours ago, NickPickToo said:

POR 15 is good on surface areas that are not easily reached with a grinder/sander, but where the underlying steal is still solid.

From what I understand, por15 needs decent surface prep or it will lift and leave a bigger mess.

 

I am leaning towards a rust encapsulator. There are many brands on the market, I am guessing Eastwood's product is probably most costly but best product ... love to hear what others have to say?

 

10 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Phosphoric acid is my single most common go-to for rust busting. 

I agree here, sometimes bad heavy surface rust is difficult to remove. I have been fighting this on my project ... see avatar. Mechanical means with sanding, grinding, wire wheel ... just polishes the rust. Sandblasting would work, not a option for me.

So I have been playing with Ospho, a phosphoric acid I buy from Ace hardware. Pretty mild but does ok for it's goal .... kill rust before you paint. wire brush off the heavy stuff, spray it. It suppose to kill the rust and turns it to a black primer, that you can paint over.

Perfect for hard to get to frame areas and areas you will not see. ... probably not good for exterior body panels ... but it has its place.

 

Another product from any hardware store is muriatic acid. Less then $20 a gallon, is some strong stuff .... It can be your best friend or your worse enemy. First photo is a fender I cleaned with muriatic acid before, but did not properly clean and dilute the acid after cleaning it, the rust came right back ... second photo is what it looks like after I cleaned and did it right the second time. ... do not use it indoors, do not breathe it, wear safety goggles,  A small test job in the shop in a bowl on the work bench, vapors will rust all the tools around it ... store the leftover gallon jug in the shop with the cap on, and every tool within 10' of the bottle will still rust.

I would have same concerns about using a stronger version of phosphoric acid.

 

 

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Los...I have used the Ospho and while it is effective...the added agents that create the black inert oxide is a favorable side effect...I just prefer the cleaner finish of the straight phosphoric acid.  One can easily do their final wipe with this conversion product after metal is clean as steel panels are microscopically porous...this is a good step for storage between prep and prime....

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4 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Los...I have used the Ospho and while it is effective...the added agents that create the black inert oxide is a favorable side effect...I just prefer the cleaner finish of the straight phosphoric acid.

Thanks for that tip ... I claim to be new to this and learning, In back of my mind am thinking  phosphoric acid ... ospho ... same product but different brand name.

I see I am wrong, and now interested in trying straight phosphoric acid.

 

How user friendly or potency do you feel straight phosphoric is, compared to ospho vrs muriatic?

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muriatic or other etching acids I do not recommend......that acid always needs neutralized....that acid will dry in cracks and hidden places as will most all products and when wetted later rain or car wash...reactivate.   Phosphoric rinsed with water is all that is needed, no other agent to stop its process.  Also there are added unnecessary health risked involved with the other acids.  All acid treated metal should be washed and blew dry and with that you get flash rust...so what to do...magic eraser with wetted acid cloth but NOT a full wet application...The stronger the concentration the better and quicker removal of rust.  The 55% I use will actually brush on walk away come back and it has done its job and actually flakes off when dried.  You can quick brush this on and walk away , apply another coat if needed till rust is gone.  This will continue to work even if left in the weather ...it reacts only to rust and never removes good metal.  Many folks consume phosphoric acid in their daily diet.  

 

As with all things...each person is responsible for the manner it is used and safety involved.  I recommend that you read a few white papers on the use of Phosphoric acid and develop your own process from there.  

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I hope this little conversation is useful to the original poster, not trying to jump his thread. Sometimes acid is the only way to go.

I have tried 2 different kinds. One is mild and works for what is meant for, The other is at the other end of the spectrum, works good but is a bully.

 

A good example, roof of my cab. My cab is not coming off the frame, layers and layers of surface rust and deep pitting. I did try Muriatic acid on it one time. Did not cut it, the acid ran off and leaked into the cab, rusted my ZZ top key chain I bought in the 1980's ... that pissed me off. Minor issues inside because had it mostly stripped out, but the vapors from the roof leaked down and rusted the bare steel on my new rebuilt carburetor and other items in engine bay. linkages and cowl vent ... just a experiment and survived, will never put muriatic on my truck.

But fenders, bed sides, all items that come off and go to the back yard is fair game.

 

So now my daily chore is to look up online and see if can order some straight phosphoric acid and give it a shot.

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I used to work in a plating shop, and we used muriatic in the plating process, especially for cadmium plating.  If you were delayed after taking something out of the acid soak tank, you could literally watch it rust before your eyes.  Muiatic acts much faster than phosphoric does in removing rust, but has that unwanted after effect.  I bought some straight phosphoric from the shop, and had my own vat at home.  Toward the end of when I was actively stripping parts, I had soaked an extra part I had, and just hung it up to dry.  That was nearly 40 years ago, and that part is still not rusted, and the only 'coating' is the dried phosphoric acid.  That was a piece of heavier steel, but i also have some sheet metal parts I never painted after soaking, and they are only slightly rusted.  I'm guessing that I must have rinsed those off, because they don't have the characteristic coloration of phosphoric acid residue.  Oh, I forgot that I also have some extra wheels I soaked - those are also unpainted, and not rusted.  

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This was my first run at a full cycle of wet sanding, compound and polishing.   It's still not where I would like it to be, but for a first timer  I like how this turned out.  I am now confident enough that I'll get better by the time I'm ready to paint the full car.  Not even close to going to "The Show" yet, but worst case, I would have no issues driving this around town.

 

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Edited by NickPickToo
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8 hours ago, casper50 said:

I only use mud as a skim coat to fill low places.  Cover the whole thing then sand almost all of it off.

 

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Now that's a rotisserie!!!!  Beautiful Coupe!!!!  I can only barely see the patch inside the front of the inner rear fender well.

Edited by NickPickToo
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Nick, money spent on professional finishing compound is worthwhile. Find a local auto paint jobber and get their suggestion. I've used a product called FinessIt, don't know if it is still available, may have been replaced by something even better. ALL the orange peel must be sanded off and then.....a lot of buffing. The proper pad is also important. The hood looks good, but there is still more gloss to be had. ?

Edited by Sam Buchanan
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Here is an assortment of 3M Finesse-It products on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=finesse-it+3m&crid=J62BZI8WMNSV&sprefix=finesse-it%2Caps%2C170&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10

 

You will easily use a quart on the whole car.

 

Here is the particular product I used most recently:

 

https://www.amazon.com/3M-05928-Finesse-Machine-Polish/dp/B0006GBTP8/ref=sr_1_4?crid=J62BZI8WMNSV&dchild=1&keywords=finesse-it+3m&qid=1593306822&sprefix=finesse-it%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-4

 

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I use a lambs wool pad on a large buffer, either an orbital or rotary. Wet sand the paint down to at least 1500 grit then settle in for quality time with the buffer.  ?

 

Also get a spur tool for cleaning the wool pad:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Polishing-Revitalizing-Polisher-Compound-Canopus/dp/B073HKBHX8/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=wool+buffing+pad+rake&qid=1593307218&sr=8-3

 

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Nick.................I would also suggest that you do not use your nice new painted car parts as the place to learn how to buff a paint job..........I would suggest finding an old fender, hood or anything really with some paint on it and practice wet sanding then either hand or machine buffing the old paint......if you stuff it up, who cares, its no big deal and you have gained valueable skills and experience in the process with little monetary outlay.......even a bent or smashed up panel from a wrecking yard is fine to learn on......... ..as I mentioned I normally use machine compound, ie, a cutting compound made for use with a buffing machine BUT use it by hand, yep, its a much longer job but much less of a chance in cutting thru your nice paint job .............which is why even if its just a straight non metallic solid color you should give the car a couple of clear coats, ideally by mixing some clear into the color.....it just gives you a little extra insurance that helps to prevent cutting thru on the edges and the underlying primer & undercoat.............anyway you are not only learning an important skill but giving all of us a refresher so its all good............regards from Oz........Andy Douglas       

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