crankshaft question

[bosworth]

I took my 218 engine  from my 51 B3B pickup to a local machine shop.  They removed the crankshaft, the shaft has been turned to .030 under,  most of the shaft looks ok, but number one had a spun bearing and is going to need work,  problem is the largest rod bearing that I can find is .040 and that probably won't be enough.  If I can find a shop that can weld and grind we might be able to save the shaft.   I found a crankshaft on ebay.  It's problem is that it's output flange is for 8 bolts, my flywheel for a 3 speed is 4 bolt.  I would assume that the 8 bolt flange is a different size and has a different bolt circle than the 4 bolt flange,  it would be to much to hope for an interchange.  Does anyone have a clue if the 8 bolt and 4 bolt patterns are compatible?  Any thoughts on welding and grinding the one I have?

Thanks

Bill

Edited June 10, 2018 by bosworth

[P15-D24]

You need get a Hollanders exchange manual to see which cranks will work. Or post the forge numbers on the cranks and we can look them up. 

[bosworth]

The crank that I found with the 8 bolt flange has a forging number of 1316540  I don't know about the one that was in my engine,  I'll try to find out tomorrow, but it is probably 952068 or 856080

Bill

[Young Ed]

you might still have issues but I have a 8 bolt crank in my project 47 using a 4 bolt flywheel. 

[P15-D24]

4 hours ago, bosworth said:

The crank that I found with the 8 bolt flange has a forging number of 1316540  I don't know about the one that was in my engine,  I'll try to find out tomorrow, but it is probably 952068 or 856080

Bill

Sure on those numbers ? Only one I'm finding is 85608. They do mention crossing to 8 bolt but it will require a different flywheel and a standard pilot busing will need to be fitted because that crank is set up for a Fluid Drive. 

 

FYI I have four 218 cores list in the store. If you get stuck I can check the forge numbers. Problem is i'm on the west coast and shipping will be high. Pretty sure they can go UPS or FedEx Ground however.  Let me know 

[bosworth]

thanks,  I will go over to the engine builders this morning and try to find a forge number for the crank that I have.  He also indicates that the camshaft looks warn,  I have another running engine  that may donate a camshaft,  the crank in that engine is worse than the one at the builders.

Thanks

Bill

[Merle Coggins]

I'm confused... You say that the crank is turned 0.030" under, and you found bearings for  0.040" under journals and you are looking for another crank? Why not turn it down another 0.010" and use the bearings you found? No 0.030" bearing shells available anywhere? Did you have your machine shop check with their sources?

[bosworth]

I seems that the surface is to damaged to be turned to .040, I was hoping that it could be saved.

I went over to the shop this morning and looked at the crank number,  it's very hard to read,  at first I thought that the number was way off in left field, then figured out that I was reading the number up side down!!  As best I can make out it is consistent with 952068.  The engine Number is P23*87907 so it should be a 218 out of a 52 plymouth.  They are going to clean up the block and check for cracks etc.  If it is ok, I will be looking to get a replacement crank.. 

 

On another topic,  there is a question about removing the plate at the end of the camshaft,  is this the thrust plate?,  is it pressed on?

thanks

Bill

[wayfarer]

As to the 4 bolt vs 6 bolt vs 8 bolt patterns....all are on the same diameter circle and all are on the same pattern so that part makes swapping around easy. I was not aware of 218 with 8 bolt crank flanges so someone please check me on that. You need to verify the location of the flange as the 218 is 0.185" closer to the block than a 230 flange. You can measure from flange to bearing journal for comparison to what is being offered.

 

As to your crank, it is not uncommon to weld up a crank and go back to standard assuming that you are dealing with a crank repair shop not just a crank grinder.

[P15-D24]

1 hour ago, bosworth said:

I seems that the surface is to damaged to be turned to .040, I was hoping that it could be saved.

I went over to the shop this morning and looked at the crank number,  it's very hard to read,  at first I thought that the number was way off in left field, then figured out that I was reading the number up side down!!  As best I can make out it is consistent with 952068.  The engine Number is P23*87907 so it should be a 218 out of a 52 plymouth.  They are going to clean up the block and check for cracks etc.  If it is ok, I will be looking to get a replacement crank.. 

 

On another topic,  there is a question about removing the plate at the end of the camshaft,  is this the thrust plate?,  is it pressed on?

thanks

Bill

Sure it's not 952066 ? That would be the correct # for a P23/218

End plate is pressed on, it may have a key in it also.

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, wayfarer said:

As to the 4 bolt vs 6 bolt vs 8 bolt patterns....all are on the same diameter circle and all are on the same pattern so that part makes swapping around easy. I was not aware of 218 with 8 bolt crank flanges so someone please check me on that. You need to verify the location of the flange as the 218 is 0.185" closer to the block than a 230 flange. You can measure from flange to bearing journal for comparison to what is being offered.

 

As to your crank, it is not uncommon to weld up a crank and go back to standard assuming that you are dealing with a crank repair shop not just a crank grinder.

I think the 218 8bolt cranks came out of fluid drive trucks. Mine is certainly in a pilot house era truck block. 

[John-T-53]

I am running an 8-bolt hole 230 crank with my 4-bolt flywheel.

 

I was under the assumption that 8-bolts were 230s only, or 218s from 1941 only. Otherwise all 218s had 4 hole flanges.

 

Check the stroke on the crank too, that's another way to verify 218 vs 230.

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

I have a 218 in my truck with an 8 hole crank flange, because my truck has Fluid Drive.

[RNR1957NYer]

With regard to the difference in flange dimension off the block between the 218 and 230 noted by Wayfarer,  as I understand it the issue could be that the 230 crank pushes the flywheel out of full engagement of the starter gear when reusing the 4 bolt 218 bell housing and  transmission. Don Coatney posted a slick photo of some bell housing machine work he did in 51 Meadowbrook's post "Engine and Trany Swap" -  I made note of this because I believe I will be up against the same issue when I swap an 8 bolt 230 into my 4 bolt 201 P12.  

[Don Coatney]

[Elwood]

4 hours ago, wayfarer said:

As to the 4 bolt vs 6 bolt vs 8 bolt patterns....all are on the same diameter circle and all are on the same pattern so that part makes swapping around easy. I was not aware of 218 with 8 bolt crank flanges so someone please check me on that. You need to verify the location of the flange as the 218 is 0.185" closer to the block than a 230 flange. You can measure from flange to bearing journal for comparison to what is being offered.

 

As to your crank, it is not uncommon to weld up a crank and go back to standard assuming that you are dealing with a crank repair shop not just a crank grinder.

 

My experience is as Wayfarer stated: the circles are all of the same diameter.  I'm not familiar with the Fluid Drive cranks, but I know that the crankshafts in the military T-245 engines should be eight bolts, with a conventional clutch and four-speed New Process transmission.  However, I've disassembled two different T-245 blocks that had the correct crankshafts, but either four bolt or six bolt passenger car flywheels bolted to them.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Elwood

[bosworth]

Elwood,  thanks for the information, it's interesting that the cranks are universal.  it seems like the biggest job with the 8 bolt crank offered would be fitting a pilot bearing. If i were to go with the 8 bolt crank I would have to find out if the flange is setback further than the 4 hole crank.

Thanks

Bill

[wayfarer]

Good to hear that some 218 had a FD option in truck applications!  As far as I know, everything with FD had the eight bolts.

So now I have to wonder if the 218 with 8 bolts has the same flange position as the 4-bolt crank or if MaMopar pushed the flange 

back to match the 230 crank...? Anyone?

[Elwood]

8 hours ago, bosworth said:

Elwood,  thanks for the information, it's interesting that the cranks are universal.  it seems like the biggest job with the 8 bolt crank offered would be fitting a pilot bearing. If i were to go with the 8 bolt crank I would have to find out if the flange is setback further than the 4 hole crank.

Thanks

Bill

 

Pressing in a new pilot bearing is straightforward.  I'm not a fan of the metallic ones (if it bonds to a magnet, it doesn't go in).  The factory called for a special tool (Miller C-3181) to press in and then burnish the ID of the pilot bushing, but plenty of them have been installed without it.  Just check the ID of the bushing after installation, and compare it to the OD of the pilot on the transmission input shaft.  0.003" clearance should be good.

[P15-D24]

2 hours ago, Elwood said:

 

Pressing in a new pilot bearing is straightforward.  I'm not a fan of the metallic ones (if it bonds to a magnet, it doesn't go in).  The factory called for a special tool (Miller C-3181) to press in and then burnish the ID of the pilot bushing, but plenty of them have been installed without it.  Just check the ID of the bushing after installation, and compare it to the OD of the pilot on the transmission input shaft.  0.003" clearance should be good.

On the 8 bolt I believe the hub has to be machined to accept a non FD pilot bushing. It's not just a swap. 

[Don Coatney]

4 hours ago, P15-D24 said:

On the 8 bolt I believe the hub has to be machined to accept a non FD pilot bushing. It's not just a swap. 

 

This is what I did. Installed a bearing to replace the bushing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tom'sB2B]

This might or might not help

On the right is a crank with an 8 hole flange. On the right is a four . On the 8 hole, from the rear main cap to the flange is 1/4” longer than the 4 hole

[Merle Coggins]

Is that extra length just to allow room for the retaining nuts on a FD unit?

 

[wayfarer]

I think that a careful measurement will net 0.185".

All of the early assemblies used a nut on the backside of the flange and I 'think' that all of the nuts are the same. 

  (Today, these nuts would be referred to as 'small pattern' since they use a wrench that is one-size smaller than 

normal for the bolt size. )

I looked through a collection of nuts saved from many many disassemblies and all are the same height.

[bosworth]

I want to thank everyone for their great input,  I learned a lot in a short time.  I purchased a crank from this website store and should receive it this week. I'll have to start collecting up the rest of the parts so they can complete the rebuild.   I should post a few pictures of my project so you can see what I've been up to so I'll start another thread and see if I can figure out how to post the pictures.

Thanks

Bill