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Hemi using oil


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i have a whopping 200 miles of use on the new engine. It is using alot of oil. It also has 4 lifters that are not pumping up all the way which has me a bit confused. It is a fresh 325 with new 9.5:1 pistons/moly rings, fully rebuilt heads with hardened seats. Clay smith cam with .440 lift, 265 Duration and 110 lobe separation and topped of with a 500cfm Edelbrock. So I used about 3 quarts of oil in 200 miles of running with no external leaks. I pulled the plugs and they look like this. I also did a compression test and got some strange results. Granted there is only 200 miles on the motor and its cold. Readings are 175, 155, 155, 150, 180, 190, 160, 170. What am I doing wrong or missing here?

20180428_171431.jpg

The next issue is the look of the buildup on the intake valves after 200 miles. The ports themselves are dry and didnt have a residue that come off on my fingers.

 

20180428_153450.jpg

It does have whitish/blue smoke on startup and the exhaust looks like this. 

20180428_171516.jpg

Edited by 59bisquik
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Valve stem seals leaking ... what kind of seals?

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Not sure what brand.... would all 8 be leaking? Seems a bit odd! When I get home I will see if they are installed.

 

Yup... has blue valve stem seals on all the valves.

Edited by 59bisquik
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The only reason for oil residue to be found on the backside of the intake valve is that it is sucking oil....in addition to questionable seals

you might also have too much stem clearance.

As to varying compression numbers I would be wondering about the piston rings orientation when installed.

What is the lifter part number?

Edited by wayfarer
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did you or a shop assemble the engine?  if yourself, surely you took notes when building this engine, proper specs, orientation and recorded this information, look back ot your notes if you did the work...are you running a PCV setup on this engine....look to this for possible wrong value.

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Were the rings installed by hand or the correct way with a quality ring expander?

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Piston rings were installed 180 degrees apart. A ring compressor was used for assembly.

As for the lifters, they were Johnson lifters supplied by the machine shop. I don't remember the part number. I would have to check the receipt to see if its listed. 

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Wow...this could be a multitude of things -

 

Lifter - is it not pumping up? Or is the cam flat from a bad break in?  If you can tell the lifter isn't pumping up, did you have the block tanked, and all ports cleaned out?  Once I had a ford with a broken pushrod...kinda same thing as collapsed lifter, and it was sucking oil in and burning it.

 

I also agree about PCV...are you running one?  If so, is it sucking oil from crankcase?  Very popular thing in modular motor fords, and we usually put a oil separator in line with PCV.

 

I just rebuilt motor in my Mustang Cobra...put in moly rings, and it took forever to get them to break in.  I ended up taking on highway for couple hundred miles, all good, went to Royals game, and mustang quit smoking and using oil.

 

I wish you the best of luck my friend...this could take a while.  I would start with lifters and go from there.

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As to the low/inconsistent comression and oil burning, It may just be needing a breakin process. I don't know what size/brand/material the pistons and rings are, but some do need a breakin period.  I agree that the valve deposits may be due to valve seals, but I've never seen them cause that kind of oil consumption.   The plugs show oil consumption but also the black fluffy stuff looks like a really rich condition.  Can't really tell until the oil issue is resolved.

 

On the lifter question, did you fill the lifters with oil and test them before installing?  I like to put a pushrod in the drill press, and place a lifter in clean oil in a pan under the pushrod.  Then use the drill press (not running of course!) to pump the lifter 'til it fills.  Then hold pressure for several seconds to be sure it doesn't bleed off too quickly.  Also, I see you had new seats put in.  Is it possible that they are too high and the stem to rocker clearance exceeds the lifter travel?

 

 

Edited by kencombs
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I did fill and pump up the lifters before install. Sound like I will possibly I stalling a new set shortly, so I will try the drill press method this time.

 

As for the seats, I am only having issues on 4 lifters, so I am thinking that should be ok as far as travel. 

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I skimmed this, more than likely i missed something -- moly rings stood out -- do u mean chrome moly rings ?  Charlie Stephenson

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21 hours ago, 59bisquik said:

Piston rings were installed 180 degrees apart. A ring compressor was used for assembly.

As for the lifters, they were Johnson lifters supplied by the machine shop. I don't remember the part number. I would have to check the receipt to see if its listed. 

 

Any particular reason for the moly rings?  Moly rings seat 'fairly' soon but 200 miles maybe not yet.

Ring gap position is probably only a contributor.  

My usual ring gap install: top ring at 90°, second ring at 270° and oil rails split at about 160°/200° with the expander at 180°. 

0° being the thrust side of the piston.

 

Is the oil only on the back of the valve or is there a coating on the intake runner walls?

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A pretty sure way to determine if you are sucking oil past the valve guides is to check the oil (blue smoke) coming out of the exhaust:

 

- If you get lots of smoke on acceleration, it is likely your rings are not seated correctly.

- If you get lots of smoke on deceleration (more than on acceleration), you are pulling oil past the valve guides.

 

It's sort of a mystery why the lifters might not pump up if you've got good oil pressure.

 

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So talking to different folks, engine builders and the HAMB as well as you guys, I have decided that it will come back out and be gone thru. I have a handful of things I am looking for and I need it right after all the time and money. I will keep you posted on what I find. 

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  • 2 months later...

So I finally got it pulled. Motivation to take it back apart was hard to find. The cam will need to come back out because one of the lobes has a pit on it. However, my question is what is the best way to check where the oil groove on the lifter is compared to the port in the block? I am guessing that the lifter oil groove should line up with the oil port while it is on base circle where it spends a good amount of time during the cam rotation. My theory is that with a reground cam, the base circle could be smaller and the lifter isnt getting enough oil. Maybe only when it passes the port for a split second. Other question, what is the oil port at the top the lifter bore for? 

 

20180701_174749.jpg

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The 'window' in the lifter bore is fairly large so that it provided max oil supply to the lifter and as you question, a regrind will drop the lifter in the bore by 'x' amount. The issue is only in the amount of material that was removed from the lobe. It would have to be substantial to affect the oiling.

The bigger issue occurs when a different lifter is swapped. Check the photo. 

It is worth noting that the HT2011 has been used in a multitude of rebuilds w/o negative affects.....

 

As to the small vertical oil hole in your photo, it a hold-over from the old days of splash lubrication. The Chrysler engines of the same year did not have them.

 

Lifter_comparison.JPG

Edited by wayfarer
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Thanks!

    I will pull the cam and have it redone. It has pitting on one lobe. As for the lifters, mine looks like the Rhodes or any of the others with the narrow groove. Talking with Johnson, they have another lifter with that same wide groove. I can also check the part number you just listed. I think that would help.

Edited by 59bisquik
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