Setting timing

[bluefoxamazone]

hello!

after removing the distributor it is time to set the engine timing...

perhaps a stupid question but can i use a 12V timing light (stroboscope light) to set the timing of a 6volt system if I use a separate 12V battery to power up the timing light...? Will it pick up the spark?

I have been looking around for a 6volt timing light but I can't find this.

Does havin a pertronix ignition system (no points) make a difference in adjusting the timing?

as always, every help is appreciated,

Franky

[P15-D24]

Yes, it will work if the spark pickup is inductive. 

[Tom Skinner]

Try just using a Vacumn Gauge. Set it to it's highest setting.

[Niel Hoback]

I use a craftsman 12v light on my 6v Plymouth. It has an inductive pickup and works quite well. 

Try it, it may work for you. Just get the polarity right. Red to the block, black on the positive post.

[55 Fargo]

6 hours ago, Tom Skinner said:

Try just using a Vacumn Gauge. Set it to it's highest setting.

Yes but back of a little once highest reading is reached say 1 inch of mercury.

[captden29]

red to block and black to positive gives you two grounds.

[bluefoxamazone]

15 hours ago, Niel Hoback said:

I use a craftsman 12v light on my 6v Plymouth. It has an inductive pickup and works quite well. 

Try it, it may work for you. Just get the polarity right. Red to the block, black on the positive post.

the block is positive and so is the + on the battery... I don't think this will work...;-)

 

[Niel Hoback]

Yikes!   Another senior moment!  Black to the - post. But you knew that. Thanks for the wake up!

[Tubman]

For those of you without timing lights, here's a little trick. Put a test light in series between the distributor and the coil, and turn the engine until the timing marks line up to where the initial timing should be. The bulb will go on when the points close and off when they open. Since the spark is generated when the points open, turn the distributor just until the light goes out. The initial timing should be just about right on.

[kencombs]

3 hours ago, Tubman said:

For those of you without timing lights, here's a little trick. Put a test light in series between the distributor and the coil, and turn the engine until the timing marks line up to where the initial timing should be. The bulb will go on when the points close and off when they open. Since the spark is generated when the points open, turn the distributor just until the light goes out. The initial timing should be just about right on.

back in the day, 60s-70s,  when I was doing a lot of garage work, I always timed them this way, even when working on an engine assembly on the bench.  I would complete the engine, carb, gen/alt, distributor, time using a battery to drive the light and install.

 

The always started first try.  And, I almost never used a timing light, just attach a vacuum gauge and fine tuned the timing if needed.  This method, using the vacuum, gets the best setting for each engine.  Any variance in machining keyways, gears, chains etc is accounted for.  a timing light is only as good as all those variables.  If the cam gear, crank gear, chain stretch, timing mark location, distributor gear, etc are not exactly to blueprint spec, the timing will not be ideal with a light, with a vacuum gauge, you get the best setting.  At least that is IMHO.

 

One change in your procedure:  when doing it in the car, rather that using the light in series, I just attached to the coil and ground, paralleled.  That reverses the light on/off.  It will light when the points open.

[bluefoxamazone]

5 hours ago, Tubman said:

For those of you without timing lights, here's a little trick. Put a test light in series between the distributor and the coil, and turn the engine until the timing marks line up to where the initial timing should be. The bulb will go on when the points close and off when they open. Since the spark is generated when the points open, turn the distributor just until the light goes out. The initial timing should be just about right on.

does this trick also work with the pertronix ignition set installed..?

I also have no idea how this timing adjustment with a vacuum gauge works. Is this discribed in the manual or is there somewhere a manual available..?thanks

[Tubman]

I don't know whether this works with a Pertronix. I'll leave that to others more familiar with them to explain. As to setting the timing with a vacuum gauge. What I do is get the engine running at a decent idle, and then twist the distributor, while watching the gauge.Turn the distributor (advancing it) until the vacuum gauge registers it's highest reading. Then, retard it just a smidge and tighten down the distributor. I always time my engines this way, especially modified ones. When you change the carburetor, compression, cam, or any other component affecting engine performance, you change the basic characteristics of the engine and the factory specs may no longer be valid. The light does get it very close to the factory initial setting which is very close to what the engine needs at low speeds.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Tubman

[classiccarjack]

Using a 12 Volt battery next to you, you can hook up your timing light to it, and it will work fine.  I do it all the time.  Once the pickup senses the spark, the light will flash.  

 

As far as the fine tuning goes, I always prefer the vacuum gauge method myself.

[Tubman]

At the risk of getting too deep into the subject, I believe that it needs to be said that having the correct timing when the engine is at operating speed under load is more important than initial timing. Let's face it, if the car starts and idles, it's probably OK.  Cars spend most of their time under power going down the road, and this is where having the correct timing is most important. One of the best things you can do is to use an timing light with an adjustable advance to at least check to see if the advance mechanisms (mechanical and vacuum) are working correctly. Beyond this, the use of a distributor machine (such as a sun unit) allows the advance curve to be checked and tailored to the engine. Done right, the distributor will have the proper initial advance for easy starting and idling and the proper increase in advance at higher RPM's and under load for optimum performance and fuel economy.

[classiccarjack]

9 hours ago, Tubman said:

At the risk of getting too deep into the subject, I believe that it needs to be said that having the correct timing when the engine is at operating speed under load is more important than initial timing. Let's face it, if the car starts and idles, it's probably OK.  Cars spend most of their time under power going down the road, and this is where having the correct timing is most important. One of the best things you can do is to use an timing light with an adjustable advance to at least check to see if the advance mechanisms (mechanical and vacuum) are working correctly. Beyond this, the use of a distributor machine (such as a sun unit) allows the advance curve to be checked and tailored to the engine. Done right, the distributor will have the proper initial advance for easy starting and idling and the proper increase in advance at higher RPM's and under load for optimum performance and fuel economy.

You are 100% right.  But.... Only a few of us own a distributor machine.  My biggest challenge is locating good points.  New store bought points are junk. I have hoarded a few sets, but when I run out, I'm out.  Never had any luck with Pertronics, so perhaps I can figure out another option, if needed...

[Tubman]

There are a few outfits out there with the old Sun machines that specialize in refurbishing and setting up "traditional" ignition systems. One example is "Bubba's Hot Rod Shop" in Indianapolis. Anyone spending several thousand dollars dollars on a new engine for their car would be well advised to send their distributor in for a "tune-up" as well. It's not that expensive. I share your opinion of Pertronix ignitions. There are far too many stories of them dying without notice at the most inconvenient times and in the most inconvenient places. I have never had a points ignition fail without providing plenty of notice. They just start to degrade very slowly. Anyone with an old car should be able to detect this in plenty of time to get home and correct the problem. As to points, there are quality examples available, you just have to know where to look for them. Myself, I have a "thing" for old Mallory "flattop" distributors, and Summit racing still has points for them. The only problem with component availability is with condensers. There are quality conventional condensers available if you know where to look. Unfortunately, the supply of  the big brass Mallory "trash can" condensers seems to have completely dried up. Because of that, I am now reproducing them using modern severe-duty film capacitors. If anyone has any interest in them, they can contact me. Here's a couple of examples :

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Tubman

[bluefoxamazone]

11 hours ago, Tubman said:

At the risk of getting too deep into the subject, I believe that it needs to be said that having the correct timing when the engine is at operating speed under load is more important than initial timing. Let's face it, if the car starts and idles, it's probably OK.  Cars spend most of their time under power going down the road, and this is where having the correct timing is most important. One of the best things you can do is to use an timing light with an adjustable advance to at least check to see if the advance mechanisms (mechanical and vacuum) are working correctly. Beyond this, the use of a distributor machine (such as a sun unit) allows the advance curve to be checked and tailored to the engine. Done right, the distributor will have the proper initial advance for easy starting and idling and the proper increase in advance at higher RPM's and under load for optimum performance and fuel economy.

would 4 to 7° btdc be allright...?

[Tubman]

For the initial timing that would be OK. If you have (or can borrow) a "dial-back" timing light, you should be looking for a total advance (at speed) somewhere in the mid twenties. With a good vacuum advance, 4 -8 more can be added in at cruise (high vacuum conditions).

 

EDIT : I just checked a couple of sources and it seems factory spec for initial advance is 0°, so the 4° to 7° you are quoting may be a bit much. I will defer the final decision to the Mopar experts here.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Tubman

[kencombs]

I really don't pay any attention to the indicated advance.  If you set it with a vacuum gauge, it performs well, doesn't ping, overheat or kick back when starting, who cares what the mark is?  timing marks can be wrong, for any number of reasons.

[Tubman]

"kencombs" is correct, as long as the advance mechanisms in the distributor are functioning properly. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

[Jeff Balazs]

Standard type timing lights work just fine with the 6 volt Pertronix module installed. I have heard all the rubbish about Pertronix modules failing..........and I believe most of the failures happen because of errors in the installation process. I absolutely love the way mine works and feel it is one of the best upgrades an owner can make. And I unlike most of you drive my 52 Dodge truck every day. Fires right up hot or cold without any fuss.

A good vacuum gauge is one of the best devices there is to get the most out of this type of engine. I have one permanently installed in my truck and pay as much attention to it as all the other gauges combined. If you have this sort of set up you will always be able to tell when something begins to go awry.

Jeff

[soth122003]

Thanks for tip kencombs. Been timing mine with the light since I got it and the best I could do on vacuum was about 16-17, Used the vacuum gage just now and it is purring like a kitten then roars like a lion with the gas pedal. The vacuum gage is now reading just shy of 21. Of coarse the throttle plate rod is wore some so I am sucking air in there and have to run the idle about 600-700..

 

Joe Lee

[55 Fargo]

On 4/5/2018 at 4:12 PM, kencombs said:

I really don't pay any attention to the indicated advance.  If you set it with a vacuum gauge, it performs well, doesn't ping, overheat or kick back when starting, who cares what the mark is?  timing marks can be wrong, for any number of reasons.

Just put vacuum gauge on for some tweaking.

If I advance too much needle flickers.

If I retard too much vacuum drops to 15 and flickers.

Mire advance to stable 17.5 is all can get.

Leaky cyls and old engine symptoms.

[bluefoxamazone]

today, reset the timing with the strobe light. Put the distributor around 2° btdc. Starts good, engine runs good. I think we are ok...

 

 

[Dennis Detweiler]

Where do you connect the vacuum guage?