Another 230 build thread

[Merle Coggins]

Yup, it's a tight fit up in there. Only an open wrench will work. To use a torque wrench you'd need a special adapter, like a crows foot wrench with a long reach, to get the head of the torque wrench out in the clear. I just use my 5/8" open end wrench and get them as tight as I can.

 

You probably also found that you can't start a nut on the studs if another one has the unit snugged up tight. It has to be backed off a little bit, then get all 8 started, then snug them all up.

[tom'sB2B]

55 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

Yup, it's a tight fit up in there. Only an open wrench will work. To use a torque wrench you'd need a special adapter, like a crows foot wrench with a long reach, to get the head of the torque wrench out in the clear. I just use my 5/8" open end wrench and get them as tight as I can.

 

You probably also found that you can't start a nut on the studs if another one has the unit snugged up tight. It has to be backed off a little bit, then get all 8 started, then snug them all up.

Thanks Merle

Do you know which side of the nut is the contact side. I noticed one side of the nut is flat and the other has a raised edge. The  edge of the nut has notches to indicated one side from the other. I would like to get it on correct before I go further.

[Merle Coggins]

I don't have an answer for that. As I recall when I put mine back on, the nuts had one shiny side due to previous contact with the flange. The other side was oxidized/dirty. I put them back on the same way.

[Cpt.Fred]

very cool, my fingers are crossed it runs as good as it looks!

[dodgeguy]

Was going to suggest magnaflux and hot tank but saw it later in post. Don't forget ZDP (zinc) additive for your oil. flat tappet cams will wear out quickly with modern oils that are forced on us these days. 2 door sedans are rare in these parts, but cool. Guy on you tube converted 4 door to one but I'm  not sure proportions look right regarding front doors. By the way your engine hoist must have one heck of a reach, or the old "shade tree" was pressed into service.

[Adam H P15 D30]

2 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

Was going to suggest magnaflux and hot tank but saw it later in post. Don't forget ZDP (zinc) additive for your oil. flat tappet cams will wear out quickly with modern oils that are forced on us these days. 2 door sedans are rare in these parts, but cool. Guy on you tube converted 4 door to one but I'm  not sure proportions look right regarding front doors. By the way your engine hoist must have one heck of a reach, or the old "shade tree" was pressed into service.

These old flatheads probably don't need extra ZDDP because of the simplified valve train and low spring pressures.  That said, I do use Diesel oil in mine with comes will a reduced amount ZDDP.  My OHV engines with higher spring pressures definitely get the ZDDP treatment.

 

Adam

[Don Coatney]

5 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

 Don't forget ZDP (zinc) additive for your oil. flat tappet cams will wear out quickly with modern oils that are forced on us these days. 

 

How many cam failures have you actually seen in Mopar flathead engines? In the past 55 years of working on these engines I have never seen any such failures. If it makes you feel good to use such additives by all means do so. But your engine will not care. 

[sser2]

1 hour ago, Don Coatney said:

 

 In the past 55 years of working on these engines I have never seen any such failures. 

That's true. There was no ZDDP in 30s-50s, and cams/tappets were just fine. BTW, all modern API SN oils contain zinc, just a little less than previous API service ratings (~800 ppm vs. ~1,200 ppm). Other additives compensate for lower zinc.

 

This is a concern for drag racing, not for vintage cars.

[Adam H P15 D30]

1 hour ago, sser2 said:

That's true. There was no ZDDP in 30s-50s, and cams/tappets were just fine. BTW, all modern API SN oils contain zinc, just a little less than previous API service ratings (~800 ppm vs. ~1,200 ppm). Other additives compensate for lower zinc.

 

This is a concern for drag racing, not for vintage cars.

Not exactly, racing engines are generally roller engines not needing the Zinc.  Most OHV V8's running Hydraulic or Solid flat tappet cams need 1200-1600 PPM ZDDP to keep the cam from flattening, and they will go flat!  The ZDDP was added when OHV engines started getting higher valve spring rates.  Yes, your 60's - 70's - and 80's cars will generally need the Zinc to keep the cam happy.  Cat converters were the main reason for its removal.

I MUST run it in my HEMI because I run a flat tappet cam.  My Flathead doesn't need it because it doesn't have enough spring pressure to matter.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Adam H P15 D30

[dodgeguy]

Hi  Don, I'm going by my experience on a small block Chevy, so I err on cautious side now with any flat tappet engine I own, just a opinion based on past experience not trying to step on any toes or peoples opinions.

[tom'sB2B]

I know this has been a much discussed topic. When I talked with George Asche, he suggested a straight up non detergent 30w oil. Someone also suggested the Joe Gibbs driven break-in oil that has zinc or Royal Purple. Not sure which direction to go.

I guess if there is no harm in using the zinc  added oil,  I’ll sweat the extra $15 bucks for the first oil change for peace of mind.

[Don Coatney]

11 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

Hi  Don, I'm going by my experience on a small block Chevy, so I err on cautious side now with any flat tappet engine I own, just a opinion based on past experience not trying to step on any toes or peoples opinions.

 

Small block shiverlay is a whole different world. High RPM's and heavy valve springs. I have seen and heard of many cam failures in that engine. 

[thebeebe5]

14 hours ago, tom'sB2B said:

I know this has been a much discussed topic. When I talked with George Asche, he suggested a straight up non detergent 30w oil. Someone also suggested the Joe Gibbs driven break-in oil that has zinc or Royal Purple. Not sure which direction to go.

I guess if there is no harm in using the zinc  added oil,  I’ll sweat the extra $15 bucks for the first oil change for peace of mind.

 

And it will certainly be discussed many more times.  

I agree that the stock  spring pressures of these engines are very unlikely to wipe a cam lobe, but having been the victim of a wiped cam lobe in another engine I’m always a bit nervous....  even with spring pressures for my recent flathead  build being only 40 PSI on the seat and 97 PSI at full lift I’m still going to run Valvoline VR1 oil.  Has everything a flat tappet engine should need as far as essential ingredients for cam/lifter longevity.  

[Matt Wilson]

On 8/28/2018 at 8:53 PM, tom'sB2B said:

I know this has been a much discussed topic. When I talked with George Asche, he suggested a straight up non detergent 30w oil. Someone also suggested the Joe Gibbs driven break-in oil that has zinc or Royal Purple. Not sure which direction to go.

I guess if there is no harm in using the zinc  added oil,  I’ll sweat the extra $15 bucks for the first oil change for peace of mind.

I guess you must be talking about a recommendation from George regarding break-in oil?  When I spoke to George about a year-and-a-half ago, he recommended using Amsoil for the regular oil.  He said he got somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 miles out of one flathead that used Amsoil.

 

If there's no harm is using zinc, I may use it too.  It's not like it's gonna break the bank or anything.  It's been a while since I looked at Amsoil's website, but I think they have a zinc additive available.  If we're worried about cost, then we probably shouldn't own these cars.

[thebeebe5]

12 hours ago, Matt Wilson said:

I guess you must be talking about a recommendation from George regarding break-in oil?  When I spoke to George about a year-and-a-half ago, he recommended using Amsoil for the regular oil.  He said he got somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 miles out of one flathead that used Amsoil.

 

If there's no harm is using zinc, I may use it too.  It's not like it's gonna break the bank or anything.  It's been a while since I looked at Amsoil's website, but I think they have a zinc additive available.  If we're worried about cost, then we probably shouldn't own these cars.

Amsoil is good oil.   I’m currently driving a 2007 Accord with 369,000 miles on it and it’s had Amsoil in it its entire life.  

For Zinc content they make a “Z Rod” oil that I run in my Ford FE that runs double valve speings and solid lifters.  Think the Z Rod comes in a couple of different weights too....   not much more than dino oil and much longer change intervals.  

[Merle Coggins]

I run Amsoil in everything that I drive. I've been running Amsoil's Premium Protection oil in the Ol' Dodge since I built it, except for a short time with dino oil for break-in.

While I agree with most that zinc is probably not needed in these engines, the Amsoil product that I use does have a high zinc content. They recommend it for older vehicles, including those with flat tappet cams. I could probably run the XL 10w-40, as it is a couple bucks per quart cheaper, but for the amount of driving it gets I'm not going to worry about a few extra $$ per oil change.

 

The Z-Rod oil also has a high zinc content, as stated earlier. It is recommended for high performance engines, including those with flat tappet cams. Z-Rod comes in 10W-30 and 20W-50 viscosity. Whereas the Premium Performance is available in 10W40 and 20W50. For whatever reason, I prefer the 10W40 for my truck.

[MackTheFinger]

IMO oil threads should be banned just like religion and politics. Nothing good comes from any of them. ?

[knuckleharley]

11 minutes ago, MackTheFinger said:

IMO oil threads should be banned just like religion and politics. Nothing good comes from any of them. ?

I'm good until someone recommends Quaker State. That's when I lose my cool.

 

 

[MackTheFinger]

1 minute ago, knuckleharley said:

I'm good until someone recommends Quaker State. That's when I lose my cool.

 

 

 

My tipping point is Havoline. I just don't like the way it smells. ?

[sser2]

I couldn't care less about brands of oil. Since 80s, all oils are exceptionally good. I took apart a number of 80s-90s engines with over 200K miles. All still had honing marks in cylinder bores and main crank bearing clearances within specs. In 20s-60s, motor oils were poor quality (without friction modifying additives). Poor oils, poor air/oil filters, and poor crankcase ventilation all contributed to rapid engine wear during those times.

[knuckleharley]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:59 PM, sser2 said:

I couldn't care less about brands of oil. Since 80s, all oils are exceptionally good. I took apart a number of 80s-90s engines with over 200K miles. All still had honing marks in cylinder bores and main crank bearing clearances within specs. In 20s-60s, motor oils were poor quality (without friction modifying additives). Poor oils, poor air/oil filters, and poor crankcase ventilation all contributed to rapid engine wear during those times.

There is no doubt the oils are better,but so are the ignition,induction,and exhaust systems. Modern engines mostly have overhead cams,aluminum blocks to dissipate heat,and computer-controlled everything.

 

When you add that all together,especially the computer controlled fuel,timing,and exhaust,it really makes a difference.

 

Seems to be the only "weak" link in modern engines is the timing belt. If you can call  replacing a timing belt ever 80k or so miles a weakness. I have friends with commercial garages,and replacing timing belts seems to be a large part of their business. It's not unusual to see cars in for repair at their shops that have over 300k miles on them,and still going strong mechanically.

 

I also suspect they are balanced better than SOME of the old engines,although flathead Ford V-8's seemed to be balanced about as close as it is possible to balance one.

[tom'sB2B]

Fourth time is a charm when getting the bell house back on. 

1. Forgot to align clutch..back off

2. Forgot to add dust/oil felt seal...back off

3. Forgot to drive out pins.. partially back off.

Best to get all the bolts started. Then line up and drive in the pins. Then tighten everything up.

[tom'sB2B]

Got it back in yesterday..a small milestone.

Still a tone of work ahead of me

[tom'sB2B]

Got a little help from the wifie. I wonder if I can talk her into putting the tranny back in.?

 

[tom'sB2B]

I’m at a loss as to how this heat/ dust shield goes back on. Anybody got a photo or a good explanation on how it bolts on. I have a vague memory that the notch on the side fits over the right rear engine mount. Any help is appreciated

Also

Anyone know where I can find a clutch fork spring bracket...mine has disappeared .thanks