1946 P15 3-speed # 853880-29 teardown pics

[3046moparcoupe]

My 1st time to ever be inside any transmission. (manual or automatic), besides doing fluid/filter changes..

 

I've attached some pics to try and show some of the things that were obvious upon tear down, even to the untrained eye like mine. Like many I suppose that have sat for years without proper maintenance, this transmission shows signs of moisture exposure. I can see it on some of the gear teeth (2nd gear especially), on one of the shift rails, and a couple of spots on the mainshaft. Looks very similar to the black etching I've seen in the past on spindles when I've greased wheel bearings, on something that's been ignored. 

 

You can see this black corrosion etching, but you can't feel it with your fingernail,...so I'm wondering if I can just polish it away and re-use the parts ?? Most gear teeth edges look sharp, (I did see one small gouge in the edge of a tooth on 2nd gear, it's visible in the attached pic),...the leading and trailing edges of the teeth on 1st gear caught my eye with some random gouge spots and a uniform pattern of lines that looked so uniform and consistent I am guessing them not to be wear or damage related, but again that just a swag on my part

 

Reverse idler gear has some rough edges on some of the teeth...again, most of the attached pictures came out good enough and close enough that you can see what I'm talking about.

 

Any help from you Old tranny pros., would be valued like GOLD on this end. I'd expect that gears would be hard and iffy to find, so I'll massage on any of these parts for as long as required, in effort of getting this back together in a way that's practical and driveable. (I've seen folks on TV, use a whit stone to smooth out spots on the edges of gear teeth, when a replacement gear was just not available, but of course, I'm talking about T.V. ??,...one of the best places to pick up accurate info, right ? !!  

 

Reason for teardown : Bought the car 3 yrs ago, test drove it under 30 mph around the block a few times, all shifting was good and smooth as any 3 speed I've ever driven (except for 3rd gear),  it flat didn't want to go int 3rd and ground like crazy when you tried it.....(older fella I bought the car from was convinced in showing me that it would go into 3rd gear, and after a bunch of grinding he finally did get it to go,...didn't really sit well with me, but I hadn't purchased the car yet,...later course, I figured even with the xmn issues, the car seemed like as good of a price for a coupe as complete and clean as this, so obviously it bacame mine :)..

 

Over the past few years - here on the forum, two things I did pick up in regards to this were 1: badly deteriorated rear motor mounts can cause this shifting problem, and 2: use of gear oil other than GL-1 can cause wear that will contribute to xmn failure),....YES, there was just about nothing left of the rear motor mounts, which have now been replaced, and YES, when I drained the gear oil out, I did see a lot of very small brass/gold-ish metal particles in the gear oil...(once you take the xmn apart you see that the stop rings and the end play washers are the only two parts that would provide for this brass particle wear due to the later GL series oils, not being compatiable. I have learned to look at the grooves on the inside surface of your stop rings, and both my stop rings look good in that respect with deep grooves still in place, therefore I'm suspecting the end play washers to be the main culprits for the gold metal I could see in the old oil.

 

Attached pics are as follows: 1) 2nd speed gear corrosion and gouge spot , 2) main shaft corrosion spot - one of a couple), 3) shift rail - not very clear but corrosion spot like on main shaft, 4) tranny parts layed out, 5) 1st gear showing lines and shiny wear on teeth edges, 6) reverse idler gear - has quite a few gouges in the edge of the teeth unfortunately doesn't show up very well in the pic.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by 3046moparcoupe

[3046moparcoupe]

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by 3046moparcoupe

[P15-D24]

First, you should downsample your images to the 100-200Kb size range. They will display fine and you will save a lot of your individual image quota.

Second when you start the reassembly make sure you get the was the washer sequence on the front of the counter shaft correct. Their is a mix of bronze and steel. Also their is a welch plug on the front of the case and don't forget to install the thin gasket between the front of the case and the bell housing. Lastly be careful which type of lubricant you reinstall, some can permanently damage the synchro cage. 

[3046moparcoupe]

Thanks webmaster, you are so correct,.....when I removed the counter shaft, both the bronze washer and the steel washers were laying in the housing, so I had no way of knowing for sure which way they went back in...however about a year or so ago, I found a couple of large original Chrysler dealership posters for sale on line, on ebay....and I bought them, had them laminated and they are hanging on my garage wall...they show a lot of great information, regarding end play measurements, and show the bronze thrust washer as going in the outside most position on the shaft, up against the housing...this also matches the info I'm finding in my 46 P15 oem parts manual, it also says bronze washer to the outside of the steel washer, this is repeated on both ends of the countershaft...

 

I did make a mistake upon dis assembly that really got my goat. because I knew not to do it, and was totally taken by surprise when it happened. When I removed the smaller snap ring from the end of the main shaft, I then reached up to slide the clutch sleeve/gear assy off the end of the shaft,...and immediately I found myself holding the clutch sleeve by itself,...couldn't believe it, cause I had already picked up that this assy should never be separated, but left in its original matching mated working married position,....well - too late,....so I slipped it back together,...and then realized that I had to gentle tap the 2nd gear and clutch sleeve, stop ring entire assy off the main shaft with a soft rubber mallet...yep - I felt like a ding dong, or actually something a bit worse that shouldn't be typed in here

 

However, I do have in my possession 2ea additional clutch sleeve assemblies I picked up over the past few years,...one looks super clean and you can see a scribe mark across it, the other looks clean put it has some gouge marks where the forks ride, so I don't know about that one....anyway - I purchased both of them off of ebay from sellers with good ratings, but still that's no guarantee,...I also picked up a couple of stop rings that look to be new and un-used....

 

Lastly, I have also seen on video and read where folks have also accidentially separated these sleeves and all stated that they never had a problem upon re-assembly,...still - maybe I'll also get some good input here on the forum regarding this,...really chapped my backside when it happed, again as I knew it needed to stay together,...even though I believe it has seen more than its share of abuse... 

Edited December 26, 2017 by 3046moparcoupe

[James_Douglas]

One thing to keep an eye on is the clearance when you stick the 2nd gear back on.  It rides against a step the main shaft.  Even with a new snap ring on mine, and a new 2nd gear, it was beyond the specification. That step face wears.  I had to take the new 2nd gear to an industrial hard chrome shop and have them add a few thousands to the rear face of that gear to make up for the wear.  It has run great for over 10 years now and I do drive this car a few days every week here in San Francisco city traffic.

 

Also, pop out the little plugs in the case and clean out the little slider shaft, about a 1/2 inch long, that goes between the shifting rods.  It is missed by a lot of people, even some so-called professionals who rebuild these things.

 

James.

Edited December 27, 2017 by James_Douglas

[3046moparcoupe]

Thanks James, I appreciate the input,....yep - last night I was sitting studying the exploded diagram of this tranny, and I noticed the part I believe your speaking of. In the book it's called the gear shift rail interlock pin, and it's held in by a small plug,...I didn't remember removing it, and it wasn't laying in my parts pile, so another look at the tranny case, and I found the small plug and I could see one round end of the pin still up inside it's journal....can you tell me the best way to pop out the little plug ? is it by chance like the procedure used to pop out the larger 3/4" shift rail plug, where you use a drift and the shift rail itself, and drive the plug out from the inside of the case, carefully tapping on the detent cavity of the shift rail ? My 1st thought last night was that maybe I could retrieve the pin with a magnet and just leave the plug in place, but I haven't gone back and looked at it again,..not gonna try anything until I know for sure,..not much of one for wanting to bang on things,..:) these parts are too hard to find....can't yet see how you could get that plug out from the inside without drilling it, then pulling it, which would destroy it...?? maybe it's a replace every time type item ??

 

Steve

[3046moparcoupe]

Making progress on the 3 speed manual transmission...initially from what I could see (with my limited experience and knowledge), I could tell that the reverse idler gear teeth were pretty chewed on with a couple of little chunks actually missing from a few teeth, also I could see and feel a ridge on the short idler shaft, so I began my search for a new gear and shaft. Found a shaft on flea-bay from a seller with a strong rating that looked good in the pics, so I bought it, see pic #1 below (item in transit for delivery next week),..speaking with a fella who has a new reverse idler gear 15 teeth, new , still in cosmoline , waiting on how much to ship it -hopefully I have dubs on it, we've spoken on the phone and email back and forth, should know by tomorrow...

 

Meanwhile, while scouring over the internet (with most results coming back from flea-bay), I ran the other part numbers for 1st, 2nd, and the cluster gear assy under the oem numbers (1st 853886, 2nd 852456, and Cluster gear 697823), in the process I discovered the Borg Warner matching Interchange numbers of (1st WT243-12, 2nd WT243-11A, and Cluster gear WT243-8A)...after 2-3 days of computer red eye round the clock stare and compare, and trying to research these Borg Warner part numbers as being good replacements..I ended up finding a replacement 1st slider gear, 2nd gear, and Cluster gear assembly..see pics #2, 3 and 4 attached to this post...(all these items are also in transit for delivery next week due to the holidays), but hopefully they will prove to be as clean as the pics..all came from sellers with 99-100% ratings, and all offered a refund policy.

 

###note###there's some good looking parts out there on flea-bay, but may of those sellers are asking prices I am not willing to spend at this time if at all possible,...but fortunately as luck may have shined on me (we'll see when the parts arrive), according to the prices I saw listed on average for these old gears, and depending on what you could tell about there varying condition,..I'm encouraged that I may have gotten some pretty reasonable deals....with 2nd gear being the absolute best home run at $16.00 delivered,...again, I hope to know more when it all arrives...

 

Thanks to the old Chrysler Master Tech video's, I was made aware of the replaceable grommets for the bolts that attach the pinion retainer to the front of the transmission case..,and late last night, again on flea-bay I stumbled across a listing for a 3 pack of oem grommets. The listing stated that the grommets were still flexible and pliable, kinda hard for me to imagine that they could still be useable, but for $10 delivered, I went ahead and bit like a large mouth bass defending her nest in the spring   see pic #5 below, (item should also arrive next week).

 

Main reason for going ahead and replacing the gears, (since I found them at affordable prices), was due to the shiny sides of many of my gear teeth having rusted pits in them,...on almost every gear, you can see where it's only a portion of the teeth (I'm thinking the teeth that were exposed above the oil level that sat, unturned for who knows how many years, just a guess), anyway - I rubbed on them with a scotch brite and I can get the black to disappear, but you can feel the pits with the end of a pic, small screw driver blade, etc...with my limited knowledge, I don't know how bad these really we're, (bad enough to make noise now, bad enough to turn into noise in the future, sorta figured they would eventually turn into a problem), .. anyone out there, who'd like to contribute to my education regarding these pits on the side of the teeth, please don't hesitate,..if I spent money I didn't need to, etc..that's OK, my goal more than anything, is to do the best job I can for the old car, and to LEARN...mainly  that's what this is all about - pride in building something with your own hands and learning..

 

Today with the help of some forum members (thanks so much guys), I got the bearing off the main pinion shaft. Reason for removing it, when I turned it, no clicking or individual bad spots, but I could hear and feel a constant drag sound, the remaining 2 bearing on the main shaft don't sound that way, they are basically smooth and completely quiet when you turn them. Per the book, that pinion bearing is a 619167, and thanks to forum member "Dodgeb4ya"  who gave me some pointers and in helping someone in the past had posted the Interchange part number for that mopar bearing, the new number is 1207SL,....multiple places show to have it, like rockauto, summit racing, etc..the sellers were all listing it as a Timken bearing, which I certainly recognize from past experience around wheel bearings, and it was always really good stuff), I hope that still applies as I wonder if Timken is still USA made, or something coming from China now. Anybody out there know ??  There was also a cross reference for SKF, but most of my finding on the internet were showing folks to prefer Timken over SKF as they were saying all SKF is coming from mexico now ??

Lastly, here, after removing the pinion bearing from the pinion shaft, I see the same delima on the teeth of the pinion shaft, a good 1/2 dozen of the teeth sides are pitted up. Same as the other gear teeth, I can clean it up with a scotch brite but they are easy to see and easy to feel with a steel point,...I may now need to try and locate a replacement pinion shaft, as I'm wondering if the pitted teeth on this one, would damage the new teeth on the new Cluster gear I purchased ??  anybody ??  all input from you guys with the experience and knowledge is treated like GOLD, on this end, and appreciated.

 

Always need to send out a thank you to Plymouthy Adams, and this time is no exception, he is awesome to work with me and help out...

 

Steve

Edited January 2, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[3046moparcoupe]

Also for you guys out there like me that are getting a late start at this and trying your best to learn. I wanna thank forum member "rekbender", who told me about going to your local hardware store (like Lowes or Home Depot) and picking up a piece of 3/4" oak dowel to use as the arbor tool to hold the needle bearings, spacer, and washers in place, on the cluster gear assembly, when going back together with the tranny.. I've watched the videos out there on the Internet that show folks using grease to hold the needle bearings in place while you insert the shaft from the rear of the tranny, like on the Saginaw transmissions, and they were able to do it without an arbor, but I don't believe that tranny had the spacer in between the needle bearings as well, I believe it would be about next to impossible to hold everything still enough, and in place long enough to pull this off, without using the arbor tool. Course the Master tech video's also show old "Dutch: using the arbor tool as well, those videos are awesome, check em  out if  you haven't yet found them, they will help you.

 

Anyway - I bought a piece of 3/4" oak dowell and also they had another 3/4" dowell there as well, made out of another grade of wood, ( I forget what type wood it was),it was cheaper, but it actually seemed like it didn't want to lint off little tiny fragments onto your hand, quite as much as the oak dowell was doing, there in the store, when I would run my hand up and down the dowell..I don't know how bad that would be, but I'm thinking I  don't need any wood particals in there, no matter how fine they might be. My thought was to cut the dowel to length, then scotch brite over it a bit, maybe even use a brush and some cleaning agent - to try and knock off any wood lint, then maybe coat it with a bit of grease..??  Again, please anyone out there with the experience and knowledge - willing to share and help us starting out, please JUMP IN and REPLY, your input is needed and greatly appreciated....

 

Steve

[Andydodge]

Steve, just finished reading this thread and have learnt a few things, fortunately I haven't had the need to pull any trans apart for quite a few years but I remember even then that rule # 1 was to be extremely lean & careful in the way the box came apart and to document every little thing.........lol...........btw the knowledge & assistance from fellow forum members is what makes this such a great place to be a part of........I'll keep looking to see how everything goes, regards from Oz, Andy Douglas  

[dpollo]

I remember looking at the "exploded" drawing in the shop manual  expecting that that would be the result when I removed the cover.  

Got it all back together and it worked OK.  I was 15 at the time and the trans was from a well worn 40 Plymouth.  It was a junker but I loved it.

[3046moparcoupe]

Boy do I understand dPollo, I am connected at the waist with this old car, heck I fell in love with it the minute I saw it and now after pouring 3 1/2 yrs into it,..it's crazy how big a priority it is with me,...anyone that's worked and sacrificed on one for many years, like so many here on this forum - understand.

 

My biggest problem, is that with my limited experience in regards to being a " real problem solving and fixing mech-anic ", I over analyze - because I don't have that experience to draw from....and it gripes me to no end when I realize I failed, and screwed something up that didn't have to happen,...I guess on one hand "that's life" and a part of learning,...but I can sure wear folks out, in trying to learn. Plymouthy has been so good and patient to hang in there with me the way he has...much respect his way for sure,...

 

Like right now, I'm trying to figure out how Ole "Dutch" in the Chrysler Master Tech videos, gets those main shaft bearings off the main shaft, to clean them - then lightly oil them, then hold them up to his ear and spin them to check them to see if there bad or not and need to be replaced ?  The video doesn't show him removing them. I know just enough to know that you remove a bearing off a shaft by the bearings inner race, and you remove a bearing out of a case by the bearings outer race,..and that way you don't harm the bearing...with the spacer that's on the main shaft on this old tranny, you can't see but the very slightest outside edge of the inner race, maybe a 32nd or so of it max,..so I guess ole "Dutch" must be tapping the bearings off using a small drift on that little 32nd" of exposed inner race,..I've never dis-assembled one before so I don't know how much of an interference fit is at play here,..but one thing I have learned is to make myself slow down and don't start hitting on things until your sure...:)  Both these bearings on my main shaft, sound good when I spin them, very quiet and smooth,..but it would be nice to be able to remove them clean them up off the shaft, them remove the spacer and speedo gear, and clean out any gunk/metal/etc.. that might be behind that spacer.

 

Enough of the negative :), on the positive side of things, I'm so far ahead of where I was 5 yrs ago., when I joined the forum,...A heartfelt thank you to all you have spent time and effort in helping me learn..especially with the little things (when and where you have room to fudge a little and when you don't) ,..that are so important on this old, hard to find, and replace stuff/parts,...

 

Steve

Edited January 4, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe