53 Truck-O-Matic Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 Need some help with my '53 B4B. First startup accomplished, not running great, not willing to idle. Here's a link to a first startup, skip to 2 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Qjoi5J9t4&feature=youtu.be Solved the oil filter leak problem with a thicker gasket, but it's running a bit rough. Idle screw adjustment didn't seem to have any affect on getting it to idle properly. The first and second freeze plugs were dripping a little, (reminder: this engine was re-built in Los Angeles 8 or so years ago, finally just running now). I'm hoping they seal themselves! Question: Does the oil gauge line work by having oil in it, or is it just transmitting air pressure? Oil is definitely going up into line to gauge. Gauge seems pinned off scale. I have the gauge line attached to port between cyl #2 and #3. The filter is hooked up as per photo in thread below ("Oil Overflowing!" ) The ignition is electronic, no gap to set. Wires are in the right order. I just installed rebuild kit parts in carburetor from Mike's Carburetor, followed his video too. But I could have done something wrong. Carb is Carter BB DTL2, with extra dashpot for semi auto transmission. I'm assuming that whistling sound is carb intake with no air filter on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 If the oil gauge is pegged your pressure relief valve is probably stuck causing extremely high oil pressure. Your factory shop manual explains a lot of it. The idle issue....carb ,timing, vacuum leaks ?. Possible valve adjustment too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 Thanks Db4ya, Regarding oil pressure and pegged gauge, Pressure relief valve appears okay. All the lines are new, and I think I have them all plugged in the right places. Mystery so far. Regarding idle, adjusting Idle screw made no difference in trying to get it to idle. Perhaps the whistling sound is a vacuum leak somewhere in the carb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 ALSO, should there be play in the rotor? Not the shaft, just rotor on the shaft. Mine can be wiggled a fair amount, maybe 20 or 30 minutes if the rotor were an hour hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 The rotor should have a stainless retention clip in it. As for the oil pressure ...looked at the video of the after market gauge @ 40 PSI ... that's fine. Sounds like a vacuum leak. Run the engine and gradually close the choke plate till it runs smooth.... if it does search for the lean mixture....bad leaking gaskets, manifolds, carb base gasket or carb issue ect.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 Here's a photo of the oil gauge that got pinned. Actually beyond pinned. Is this fixable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/29/2017 at 4:57 PM, Dodgeb4ya said: As for the oil pressure ...looked at the video of the after market gauge @ 40 PSI ... that's fine. I think you were seeing the ammeter. Just hooked up a new oil gauge, and upon start up it went above 100 lbs!! I'm baffled. This is a rebuilt engine Have I got the gauge line in the right place? ( I have the gauge line attached to port between cyl #2 and #3.) Filter is hooked up as per photo attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Yep... not good...The only thing that controls oil pressure is that spring behind the grooved relief valve.. BUT....... your plunger valve looks wrong....no groove around it with the small hole in the groove. Spring is possibly wrong too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motterso Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Gauge can connect to any of those ports in the gallery, they should all show the same pressure. Looks like you have your oil filter connected correctly, too - nice work, a lot of people get that wrong. You do not have to worry about air in the line to your gauge. Your gauge looks like it needs to be recalibrated, but it is likely not beyond help. Regarding your high oil pressure - I would guess that the relief valve is stuck or that the piston used is incorrect or that the spring is too stiff. Looks ok in your picture, but the piston is clearly different. The relief valve is there to keep the pressure down, and the pressure it sees is from that same oil galley you have the gauge connected to. Not much else it could be. Rough idle is likely either bad idle circuit in the carb, bad timing of distributor or vacuum leak as others have suggested. The whine in the video sounds like the alternator, not a vacuum leak, but that doesn't mean you don't have a leak. Check your timing, check the centrifugal and the vacuum advance in the distriibutor. The vacuum advance is often a problem - both the vacuum advance and the line going to it can leak. If you aren't sure then plug the line at the manifold and see if you can get the idle to settle down. Also make sure your manifold is bolted correctly to the block (and is not leaking) and that your carb is not leaking where it attaches to the manifold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) I wonder where a replacement pressure relief valve might be found ?? Ah! Possibly Bernbaum....... Edited November 1, 2017 by 53 Truck-O-Matic another thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49D-24BusCpe Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 53T-O-M, Vintage Power Wagons has the oil pressure relief valve plungers and springs. Walt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Thanks 49D. Here's a question for yawl: If I remove the spring and plunger, and replace the nut, could that cause any harm? I'm thinking "No", and if the pressure then reads something like normal, that would be a pretty good indication of where the problem lies. If it still goes too high, the problem is somewhere else. Yes No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsartain Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) It could likely drop the bottom out of your oil pressure particularly at idle. That might not end so well. The relief valve is stuck closed keeping full oil pressure in the oil gallery. If it were stuck open (as could be simulated by removal of the spring and piston) that would cause a low oil pressure condition. Low oil pressure can result in starvation of oil to the crank shaft journals and bearings. There is a oil hole in the top of the connecting rod at the crank journal which squirts oil onto the cam lobes, low oil pressure could mean there would not be enough oil flow to lube the lobes. Possible repercussions could ultimately be camshaft, crankshaft, bearing failures. The real and only solution would be to figure out why the relief valve plunger is stuck or sticking and un stick it. I am dealing with the same problem except I can't get the plunger out. I figure you could replace the plunger and spring and it be OK. For me I have to figure a way to get it out and clean it or replace it. I am open for suggestions if someone has a cure for me. Edited November 1, 2017 by johnsartain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motterso Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) From the July 1949 Kaiser Frazer service manual pages 25 and 26 (they used a Continental designed 226 ci flathead 6): "...if the valve sticks and cannot be removed with pliers, a wooden wedge may be used. To make the wedge, cut a slit in the end of a piece of wooden dowel stock and insert a small wedge into the dowel just far enough to hold the wedge securely (fig. 34). (4) Insert the tool in the hole in the block and into the valve. When tapped lightly with a hammer, this wedge will spread the dowel inside the valve. Remove the dowel and the valve which is wedged tightly on the end of the dowel. Caution: Do not use a metal dowel as it may expand the valve, distorting it to the point of making removal difficult." This trick works well and I've never seen it in any other manufacturer's service manuals. Edited November 1, 2017 by motterso spellcheck, grrr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 53 minutes ago, johnsartain said: For me I have to figure a way to get it out and clean it or replace it. I am open for suggestions if someone has a cure for me I taped a couple of rare earth magnets to a dowel and stuck that in, the magnets pulled the valve out. Make sure the magnets are taped well to dowell so you don't end up with the magnets stuck inside by themselves. Thanks for caution, I would only run it this way long enough to determine a change, i.e. lowering in oil pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverdome Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Do you still have vacuum wipers? That is another possible source of leakage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Silverdome said: Do you still have vacuum wipers? That is another possible source of leakage. No, they're electric, and the truck is still early in reassembly. It's a chassis with axles, wheels, beginning of brake lines, engine, radiator and gas tank (empty). I haven't really dug into the vacuum leak yet, trying to solve oil pressure first because I'm reluctant to run the engine for an extended period with that problem going on. Plan is to get engine dialed in, complete brake system, then reconnect drive train and take the chassis for a drive, then start painting, reassembling sheet metal, and wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 I pulled the valve out, left the spring because it's attached to the nut. Ran the engine for about six seconds. No pressure read at all. Zero. Put the valve back, ran the engine for less than 10 seconds, pressure went to 40, then immediately shot off the scale, and oil came out of the filter housing again. AAARRRRHHHHHGGGGGG!! I don't understand what can go wrong with a simple device like a spring! ??? I can't imagine the rebuilder installed a different valve, it looks completely stock. If there is blockage somewhere else, why would gauge read Zero with valve removed? AAARRRRHHHHHGGGGGG!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motterso Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 If the valve is too short (or just wrong) then your oil pressure is pushing it closed instead of pushing it open against the spring. You need the correct piece in there in order for it to work properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Also, note that the one pictured from your parts manual page has the groove around it with holes through it. This is to allow the oil from your filter a place to return to the sump. Without this passage the oil can't get out of your filter, rendering it useless. Your picture seems to match up with the one someone posted from a Kaiser manual. I'm thinking someone swapped in a valve from a different engine somewhere along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Merle Coggins said: I'm thinking someone swapped in a valve from a different engine somewhere along the way. I sure hope you're right, though I can't see why the re-builder would have done it. I have one coming from Bernbaum, and I see VintPowerWag has one too. Fingers crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 Did the engine run with good oil pressure before you had it rebuilt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 8 hours ago, Merle Coggins said: Did the engine run with good oil pressure before you had it rebuilt? Yes, but it was many years ago, as was the rebuild. Things went in to a bit of a time warp following retirement and moving from California to Maine. (!!) Attached is a photo of the new spring from Bernbaum, which is shorter than what I have. I'm waiting for a complete spring AND valve from VintPW before I try again. Theirs has the valve with holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavisco1 Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 The red paint on the longer spring looks very suspicious. I have seen these color coded springs in high volume oil pump kits for V8s. I would say you don't have the proper spring and valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
53 Truck-O-Matic Posted November 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2017 The oil pressure relief valve saga continues: Received a replacement from VintPwrWag today, 5/8" valve and 2 1/4" spring. The spring is LONGER than what I had in there, (see photo), and quite a bit longer than what I received recently from Bernbaum, which was only 1 1/2". The new valve looks correct, but I wonder about the spring. It took some pushing to install it. Once installed, the gauge pinned AGAIN and the filter case overflowed AGAIN. Anyone know the correct spring size, or shall I just go ahead and try the 2" version or the 1 1/2" version. "MAMA SAID THERE'D BE DAYS LIKE THIS. . . " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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