A visit with Earl Edgerton

[55 Fargo]

57 minutes ago, 50plymouth said:

Edmunds has more water galleys in the front of the heads and the engines don't  run hot. The Edgy head does.   Claims of no issues, are a little under stated.   Earl is a great guy and very smart. He got into mopars in the 90s and I applaud his arrival although I have had one of his heads it over heated. I bought on of his intakes. It was better than an offy that it seems it was the starting point for, it was not as good as the last Edmunds and I now have one of the new AoK intakes which hasn't been installed yet although it clearly looks superior.   

The other issue is Edmunds heads have not been produced for approximately 50 years so they are getting scarce.   What I don't know is if Earl has changed his pattern to increase the cooling to the front of the head.   I wasn't happy with mine and sold it on ebay along with my edgy intake.   If it wasn't for the overheating I would not have sold the head.  The spark plug holes are different between the two but  I have seen guys modify the Edmunds as well.

You also have to realize that both have the issue of being a different metal than the block and by the very nature there is an issue.  Edmunds built his small and big block heads at a time when the combustion chambers and compression was far less from the factory.   In the early 50s the Canadian big block heads chambers changed and up went the compression. The small blocks did the same later in the 50s.

 

Beyond the look, I would love to see any real proof that your not further ahead with a 1950s cast iron head shaved than an aluminum head.  I have asked for years, and no one has come up with any.     Its a little like the spitfire head discussion.  If you like the look I cant argue with that.   Putting an aluminum head on a cast iron block, is an issue so you best hope there is a major performance gain.  Running hot at the front, sadly that is an issue and you can very inexpensively by a temperature gun and prove what I am telling you there.   You can argue maybe the middle cylinders might run warmer, but there is no reason the front cylinders should and they do with an Edgy head.  I wish that wasn't the case and hopefully Earl has adapted his pattern to fix that since I bought mine.

 

Thanx 50Plymouth for an informed experienced account of your experience with the EDGY head, I do not see his intakes as anything superior.

I eluded to the issues of this head, as it was engineered and cast at some point in the past, but again it was taken in the wrong way.

I have a "Spitfire" head that is being held for me from a friend and hope to go and get it at some point.

I do not see an Edgy head being all that much better for my use than a cast iron "spitfire" milled to my needs and uses.

This post is in no way a criticism or a negative toward Mr Edgerton, as he is reputed to be an upstanding and a reputable man...

[JOHN EDGE]

seems we have several opinions about the positive and negative of old vs new.  I bought my edgy head for several reasons.

I liked the appearance of the aluminum head/ increase compression ratio/ weight saving on front end and maybe some other benefits

that i'll  explore in time. the motor is a 217 with a .040 over bore. I drove it for awhile with everything in stock configuration. then added the

offy intake/ dual weber carbs and Langdon exhaust manifolds. ran much better thru all ranges from idle to highway speed  then added the edgy head

and felt that throttle response was improved. engine runs cooler that in stock form and never shows any hints of overheating. looked at some period

correct heads for this engine and they all had concerns and don't see any performance advantage with the old heads vs an edgy head. I think the

foundry process has improved greatly in the past 50 years and I'd for sure pick a new head.  I understand the period correct thought process for using

original performance pieces but if I'm driving something a lot I'm picking new stuff

[Matt Wilson]

On 2/19/2017 at 1:11 PM, 50plymouth said:

Beyond the look, I would love to see any real proof that your not further ahead with a 1950s cast iron head shaved than an aluminum head.

A few months ago, I asked George Ache about aluminum vs factory cast iron heads, and he said he only uses cast iron ones, not aluminum.  I don't remember if he gave a reason, but he clearly thinks the cast iron heads are perfectly fine, even for performance applications.  So unless someone is looking for the visual appeal of the aluminum head, I would say it's best to stick with the cast iron.  

I also asked him if there were factory heads from a particular range of years that are better than others and he didn't think so.  Whatever head he's got at the time, he just gets it milled down till he gets the compression ratio he's looking for.  Having said that, I do have to wonder, though, because I've read numerous times about later factory cast iron heads having better flow characteristics around the valves than the earlier ones.  I'm not sure if that's true or not, though. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Matt Wilson

[DonPal]

On 6/7/2017 at 5:01 PM, JOHN EDGE said:

seems we have several opinions about the positive and negative of old vs new.  I bought my edgy head for several reasons.

I liked the appearance of the aluminum head/ increase compression ratio/ weight saving on front end and maybe some other benefits

that i'll  explore in time. the motor is a 217 with a .040 over bore. I drove it for awhile with everything in stock configuration. then added the

offy intake/ dual weber carbs and Langdon exhaust manifolds. ran much better thru all ranges from idle to highway speed  then added the edgy head

and felt that throttle response was improved. engine runs cooler that in stock form and never shows any hints of overheating. looked at some period

correct heads for this engine and they all had concerns and don't see any performance advantage with the old heads vs an edgy head. I think the

foundry process has improved greatly in the past 50 years and I'd for sure pick a new head.  I understand the period correct thought process for using

original performance pieces but if I'm driving something a lot I'm picking new stuff

4 Edgy heads left in his stock as of a week ago & then Earl stated to me he is redirecting to working on family projects. I picked up a new Aluminum head from him now while readily available hoping for improved appearance, compression, and weight savings also...Earl shipped within a week. He recommended a torque of 60 ft lbs done twice cold rather than the factory 70 ft lbs on a cast iron head. He also suggested an Autolite 303 plug. I'm looking for a suitable torque for that plug to protect the head's alum. threads.

[JOHN EDGE]

I used arp head studs and torqued them twice but be sure to seal them well had a couple that had  coolant come up the stud. I used the plugs earl recommended and anti seized them and just snugged them. I've got a fellow who polished the head out of Michigan if your interested

[40desoto]

On 2/14/2017 at 8:05 AM, martybose said:

The biggest advantage to an Edgy head would be the fact that it is designed for a modern sparkplug.  My Edmunds takes a 1/2" sparkplug.  Autolite only listed two of these, and the first set I tried was an extended reach plug; turning the motor over caused the valves to promptly close the point gap to zero.  The other plug is a standard reach, but I can't gap them over .030" or the valves start banging on them too.

 

Marty

Marty, what have you done to resolve the issue?

[martybose]

8 hours ago, 40desoto said:

Marty, what have you done to resolve the issue?

I purchased a set of indexing washers for the sparkplugs.  They are normally used by racers so that they can point the electrode in a specific direction for best power, but I just wanted to raise the sparkplug up a little so that I could run a larger spark gap.

Marty

[DJ194950]

6 hours ago, martybose said:

I purchased a set of indexing washers for the sparkplugs.  They are normally used by racers so that they can point the electrode in a specific direction for best power, but I just wanted to raise the sparkplug up a little so that I could run a larger spark gap.

Marty

Well Mary, now that your old, beautiful car is currently in my garage, I should find out from you if these Indexing plug washers are reusable as the new owner(not me but a friend who is not a mechanic) will ask me or I need to tell him about this. Oh ya, are these torqued? How much?

Also are they available locally or need to be ordered?

DJ

[40desoto]

14 hours ago, martybose said:

I purchased a set of indexing washers for the sparkplugs.  They are normally used by racers so that they can point the electrode in a specific direction for best power, but I just wanted to raise the sparkplug up a little so that I could run a larger spark gap.

Marty

Thanks Marty, I have an old Edmunds aluminum head that I plan on using on my 265 and will def. need to do the sAme.

[martybose]

7 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

Well Mary, now that your old, beautiful car is currently in my garage, I should find out from you if these Indexing plug washers are reusable as the new owner(not me but a friend who is not a mechanic) will ask me or I need to tell him about this. Oh ya, are these torqued? How much?

Also are they available locally or need to be ordered?

DJ

Doug, whenever you pull the plugs out you will find the washers between the plug washer and the head; they usually come out with the plug.  They are reusable, just need to be moved to the new plug before it is torqued down just like a normal plug.  I bought them online (Jeg's, if I remember right).

Marty

[DJ194950]

Thanks for the reply Marty!

Also, sorry I mistyped your name! 

DJ

[50plymouth]

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 6:58 PM, Matt Wilson said:

A few months ago, I asked George Ache about aluminum vs factory cast iron heads, and he said he only uses cast iron ones, not aluminum.  I don't remember if he gave a reason, but he clearly thinks the cast iron heads are perfectly fine, even for performance applications.  So unless someone is looking for the visual appeal of the aluminum head, I would say it's best to stick with the cast iron.  

I also asked him if there were factory heads from a particular range of years that are better than others and he didn't think so.  Whatever head he's got at the time, he just gets it milled down till he gets the compression ratio he's looking for.  Having said that, I do have to wonder, though, because I've read numerous times about later factory cast iron heads having better flow characteristics around the valves than the earlier ones.  I'm not sure if that's true or not, though. 

I think you may have misunderstood George. I have seen the AoK dragster and it has a modified Edmunds head on it. George's 1929 Desoto which I understand was undefeated in the flying mile in the mid-50s has an Edmunds head on it.  I also believe he built a race engine for his #3 son as he refers to him, Tim Kingsbury. I got that picture from Tim's blog keeping up with the AoK boys.

I do agree he would recommend cast iron heads for most people and most applications but I do believe he will tell you its a little more than visual appeal. 

From what I understand the aluminum tends to crack over time and clearly the Edgy head is lacking cooling areas in the front of the head which are present in the Edmunds heads.

On different heads, at least when were talking the 25 1/2 inch motors I think you will find George would often seek out Tim Kingsbury or when he was alive his Dad Eddy Kingsbury for that information. Better yet ask Tim on the "keeping up with the AoK boys"

 

[greg g]

So if anyone is hankering to cast their own aluminum head, I have an Edmund's head hanging on my garage wall.  It is no good it pumps coolant out a bunch of cracks.  So if any ammature mettelurgists want to crank up the backyard forge, you can use it as a pattern for the combustion chambers. But I don't know how you would figure out the coolant passages inside, x ray, cat scan, endo scope!  I would be willing to loan it out if any one has the skills, and equipment to replicate it.  Unless of course the patent hasn't lapsed yet.

[hkestes41]

I ran an Edgy head on my 230 for about 5 years as a daily driver before selling the car this summer. Never once had an overheating issue with it despite driving in Dallas traffic in temps over 110 degrees plus. Made multiple trips to and from Joplin Missouri for the HAMB Drags in late August again no overheating.  

[HotRodTractor]

21 hours ago, greg g said:

So if anyone is hankering to cast their own aluminum head, I have an Edmund's head hanging on my garage wall.  It is no good it pumps coolant out a bunch of cracks.  So if any ammature mettelurgists want to crank up the backyard forge, you can use it as a pattern for the combustion chambers. But I don't know how you would figure out the coolant passages inside, x ray, cat scan, endo scope!  I would be willing to loan it out if any one has the skills, and equipment to replicate it.  Unless of course the patent hasn't lapsed yet.

I have the capability to 3D scan objects and use that information to create very accurate solid models in CAD software of the part scanned. I'm a bit swamped at the moment, but I would love to scan a vintage Edmund's head. I don't know if I would ever do anything with it, but digital storage space is cheap, and I have the capabilities to make molds if the need arises as I deal with the casting process on a daily basis.

[greg g]

There was some discussion on another forum in contemplation of making a copy of the Edmund's head out of billet.  This would entail making it in two pieces, one piece machined with combustion chambers on one side coolant passages on the other, with a finned top piece bolted to it, seems like an unnecessarily complex solution given gasketing and spark plug mounting issues.

[JOHN EDGE]

This is the reason I used an aluminum head--when you open the hood

[Matt Wilson]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 9:52 PM, 50plymouth said:

I think you may have misunderstood George.

It's possible I misunderstood him, but it seemed pretty clear at the time, as I remember being surprised at him saying that.  I was talking to him about performance mods, although not for a super-hot rod, just performance street use in a truck.  Maybe he meant that he only uses cast iron heads on performance street engines, and saves the aluminum heads for the real racers.  He didn't get into that kind of detail or try to clarify what he might have meant, but by the nature of the conversation, it didn't seem like there was anything else that needed clarifying, and it didn't seem like he was telling me what I should do, but rather it seemed like he was telling me what HE does.  What he said seemed more than clear at the time.  He said he just shaved the cast iron heads till the compression ratio was where he wanted it.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Matt Wilson

[Tim Keith]

This is an old thread but if any cylinder head has an unexplained hot spot I'd suspect that the casting has a flaw that blocks coolant flow.  There could even be part of the core left inside.    Motor blocks have core plugs to help extract the sand core but L-head heads don't have many openings to force a stiff wire into to break up sand that is left inside.   I  never thought of this before but the binder used for the core of these cylinder heads must provide a high assurance that any material representing the intended void can be extracted.   

[P15-D24]

FYI if you try to go to his website it looks like he either let his domain name expire or it't been hijacked.

Either way DON'T click on update your Acrobat link when that page loads. It''s fake.   

[greg g]

Edmunds combustion chambers

[sser2]

On 6/10/2018 at 12:44 AM, Tim Keith said:

This is an old thread but if any cylinder head has an unexplained hot spot I'd suspect that the casting has a flaw that blocks coolant flow.  There could even be part of the core left inside.    Motor blocks have core plugs to help extract the sand core but L-head heads don't have many openings to force a stiff wire into to break up sand that is left inside.   I  never thought of this before but the binder used for the core of these cylinder heads must provide a high assurance that any material representing the intended void can be extracted.   

This can be easily checked with a $20 endoscope.

[sser2]

On 6/10/2018 at 8:39 AM, P15-D24 said:

FYI if you try to go to his website it looks like he either let his domain name expire or it't been hijacked.

Either way DON'T click on update your Acrobat link when that page loads. It''s fake.   

Earl retired last year. However, he arranged for his performance parts business to be taken over by Mopar Montana:

https://www.moparmontana.com/