Flat head supercharged

[fargo52]

Does anyone have any information on supercharging at 251 flathead six, I have no problem making a manifold both intake and exhaust I would like to do Headers on the exhaust and some type of aluminum collection intake I already have a leftover supercharger from another project I'm looking for pictures or any information or any buddy I can talk to that has done this , I am not looking for performance I think it would just be a nice look and it would be something different. I'm also open to any criticism if anybody would like to criticize my thoughts LOL .

[55 Fargo]

look at this, its a Stude, this guy and a few others on the HAMB, go on the HAMB and create a thread, not likely you will get too much on this forum....

 

[fargo52]

I looked at that Kev's guys videos ,he has a few different prototype videos ,looks like he has fun running them ,

[JBNeal]

Supercharging a flathead?!?  Flatheads are simple by design, and that's a cornerstone for reliability, but forced induction complicates the machine unnecessarily.  Cord supercharged a V8 back in the 30s, but from my reading, those low-flying rockets had a high price tag and technical problems like vapor lock...the induction contraption mounted on the side of the flathead block would probably be almost half as big as the block itself, not including a split exhaust header setup to offset the increased induction.  And how much hp would ya gain from this setup?  I dunno, a supercharged flathead just seems like a novelty powerplant that would cost a fortune in time and $$$, whereas modest power improvements, like a 2bbl carb with split exhaust headers and a shaved head for a bump in the compression ratio, are less work and more reliable.

But it's not my dime, so do whatever makes ya happy

[greg g]

Kaiser used a Paxton supercharger on a Continental L head six for several years.  I believe boost was limited to about 4 pounds.  Carb was single 1 bbl inside a pressure chamber.  I believe hp went from 115 to 140.  In the 30's Graham Paige used a low pressure centrifugal compressor sucking through the carter single barrel, HP went from 87 to 115 on their 218 cu inch engine.  Don't believe either had internal mods to accommodate the supercharged set up.

Edited January 17, 2017 by greg g

[Jeff Balazs]

That centrifugal unit sure is an interesting bit of kit. Wonder who made those?

Jeff

[austinsailor]

I'm wondering how it's driven. Complete change of direction and plane from the crank and pulley system.

[59bisquik]

I have seen quite a few on the internet, so it's been done before on a flatty. Not sure what the increase vs effort would be, but it looks pretty cool! Best bet would be the Inliners or HAMB websites. 

Here are just a few I found for mounting and piping ideas.

[Jeff Balazs]

3 hours ago, austinsailor said:

I'm wondering how it's driven. Complete change of direction and plane from the crank and pulley system.

Can't tell from the picture.....might be a turbo of sorts?

[59bisquik]

18 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Can't tell from the picture.....might be a turbo of sorts?

 

[greg g]

The GP used a belt driven jack shaft and bevel gear.  Was also plumbed for circulating coolant and oil.  The blower housing has Graham cast into it so maybe made in house.  The G P where club has quite a bit on supercharged cars on their site.

[Jeff Balazs]

Very interesting........had never seen a set up like that! You would think it would have taken a fair amount of power just to turn it over. Again very interesting and thanks for posting it.

Jeff

[austinsailor]

22 hours ago, 59bisquik said:

I have seen quite a few on the internet, so it's been done before on a flatty. Not sure what the increase vs effort would be, but it looks pretty cool! Best bet would be the Inliners or HAMB websites. 

Here are just a few I found for mounting and piping ideas.

On these there is quite a run from the carb to the intake of the motor. Before it starts it must get fuel mixture through all that piping. I wonder if it affects cranking time when you start the motor?

I'm  guessing not much. Anyone know?

[59bisquik]

I really liked this one!

 

[Mickkc77]

On 1/19/2017 at 2:09 PM, 59bisquik said:

I really liked this one!

 

Twin carb blow through, with the paxton supercharger ,a little more complicated to set up, but would pay dividends for throttle response and ease of cold starts with carbs still in close to the head/intake ports. The only negative would be the centrifugal supercharger doesn't do much boosting until you get up in the rev range. But these old flat head 6's had bag loads of torque down low, so I would guess this setup would fix the asthmatic top end performance. Mmm, might have to look into this more for my 56 Plymouth ute...

[59bisquik]

How about this one on a Packard 8...

[Radarsonwheels]

It seems like you would have the most interesting problems with packaging it and getting the afr happy. You could probably make a plenum to mount on the passenger side of the motor, line up a belt and aim some tubes off it at the intake ports. 

 

Fuel wise theres a lot of ways to do it but since you’re already going away from the vintage look efi would be smooth. 

[41/53dodges]

I ran a small turbo on a tired 218 for a few years, blew through a factory BB carb at like 5-7lbs. I'm not going to call it a good idea, but it worked better than you'd think, the internal bowl vent and a boost referenced pressure regulator is key. Thing ran like crazy all things considered. 

[48Dodger]

Turbo Charger runs off the exhaust.

Super Charger runs off the crank.

The engine compression needs to be less then naturally aspirated compression rates.

Say, 7:1 (charged) vs. 9:1 naturally aspirated ( carb air cleaner).

There's a lot more to it, but that's a bit of the basics.....its all about fine tuning it and running the right set-up.

 

Footnote: The British bought planes from us during WW2 without the turbo chargers. They complained about our under powered planes, and used them for photo recon.

                   It wasn't until we showed them what they could do in combat with Turbo Chargers and Water Injection (to cool the cylinders) that eyes began to open.  

 

48D   

[austinsailor]

Technically, a turbo charger is a specific type of supercharger, but it’s become so common to look at them as completely separated you can almost start fights trying to argue the point.

[59bisquik]

1 hour ago, austinsailor said:

Technically, a turbo charger is a specific type of supercharger, but it’s become so common to look at them as completely separated you can almost start fights trying to argue the point.

How about a hybrid that is truly a supercharger AND turbo?

 

[Jeff Balazs]

12 hours ago, 48Dodger said:

Footnote: The British bought planes from us during WW2 without the turbo chargers. They complained about our under powered planes, and used them for photo recon.

                   It wasn't until we showed them what they could do in combat with Turbo Chargers and Water Injection (to cool the cylinders) that eyes began to open.  

 

48D   

Ha! Their RR Merlin was better than anything we built at the time. Fastest prop engined combat plane to see lots of action was the absolutely amazing Mosquito with a pair of Merlins.

[Mickkc77]

On 1/18/2017 at 4:25 AM, austinsailor said:

I'm wondering how it's driven. Complete change of direction and plane from the crank and pulley system.

If you're referring to the central supercharger that runs on a vertical axis. Like the picture above of the 1937 Supercharged Graham. They had a drive shaft that ran straight down vertically, into a gearbox with a 90* bevel drive. That ran an a short shaft out the front that was then belt driven from the crankshaft/harmonic balancer. One of the pictures above show it. The gear box is mounted forward of the starter motor and the driver pulley in mounted below the generator.

 You've got me thinking about these systems now too. I really like these old set ups. But would be almost impossible to find one today. Have been thinking about using a little toyota roots type supercharger and do a blow through on a triple carb manifold I already have. The centrifugal units above all seem to give about 20-30 hp boost in power, but these are factory spec engines and were covered by factory warranty. So I'm guessing with modern fuels, oils, pistons and modified oil systems ,you could safely double these figures. 110hp stock up to 150-170hp. That'd be a worth while gain and send and old Chrysler flat head flying down the highway. It just takes time and money..... 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Mickkc77
Typo, shaft not shift

[55 Fargo]

On 1/14/2019 at 12:51 PM, 41/53dodges said:

I ran a small turbo on a tired 218 for a few years, blew through a factory BB carb at like 5-7lbs. I'm not going to call it a good idea, but it worked better than you'd think, the internal bowl vent and a boost referenced pressure regulator is key. Thing ran like crazy all things considered. 

Thats a very interesting topic.

Have you ever created a thread dedicated to your experience with this?

Pics would be great too.

Now how much performance increase was noticed and at what RPM band?

Love this topic but know very little about creating a forced induction setup on our engines..

Edited January 18, 2019 by 55 Fargo

[41/53dodges]

Not a very extensive one, made some modifications since then. Eventually gave up on the fuel injection and went back to the carb. Turbo was particularly small, like off a 1.6l Subaru. Boost hit about 1200rpm and carried all the way to the top, but the issue was exhaust backpressure started countering the boost above 2500, kinda like a banana in the tailpipe.

 

That said, for super and turbocharging alike the exhaust is a big problem. Scavenging is deeply improved going to duals (read up on flat vs cross plane cranks for V8s for reference) Cleaning up the ports & combustion Chambers with a mild cam help as well. Basically, build a reliably strong N/A motor inside and out and build from there.

 

Probably should stipulate, If you're expecting V8 power then this is not the solution. It's not going to raise the motors redline, and the boost curve doesn't change the motors natural torque curve, only aids (and sometimes pulls it down)

 

Feel free to pick my brain if you please!

I'm by no means a wizard, although I do like pointy hats...