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Stock CC volume for a 265 Spitfire Head? (can't find any previous posts)


Powerhouse

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Can anyone help me out with what the cc measurement would be for a stock 265 Spitfire Head? 

 

According to that handy chart the Chry 6 for 51-54 may take of .100 to get a 7.8 ratio.   But I need to know stock cc in order to figure if it's been messed with yet. 

 

Any pointers are greatly appreciated. 

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Contact Tim Kingsbury on this forum ,or telephone George Asche ,as he does not do internet he may be able to pinpoint what you are looking for. Now there will be variances in head chamber CC as well as cam profiles for the 265 engine, depending on year and application. Have you determined CC volume yet?

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If you want to boost compression  on a 251, install a head from a Canadian Plymouth 218. The chambers are smaller in order

to achieve 7 to 1 compression with a  3 3/8 bore 4 1/16 stroke.

 

The only heads with SPITFIRE cast into them that I have seen were on 49 Chryslers and they were about 7 to 1. on a 251 engine.

 

Other 251 and 265 engines had plain looking heads but if you check a parts book, you will see that they are different according to engine displacement.

 

If you are looking to a SPITFIRE head for anything other than looks, you will be disappointed.

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Can anyone help me out with what the cc measurement would be for a stock 265 Spitfire Head? 

 

According to that handy chart the Chry 6 for 51-54 may take of .100 to get a 7.8 ratio.   But I need to know stock cc in order to figure if it's been messed with yet. 

 

Any pointers are greatly appreciated. 

 

It depends on which spitfire head, which debuted in 1941 on cars shipped to Europe with the Canadian Military  but didn't hit the civilian market until after the 2nd world war. The 265 of course debuted in 1952 and the while the head was made until late 1958 with spitfire on it, Chrysler stopped using the 265 spitfire in Cars in early 1954. There are slight differences in the head even on the 265 motors.  As someone on the thread pointed out unless you like the name Spitfire on the head, which was a tribute to the Spitfire Airplane,  there are actually better heads on other Mopar products.   Either the smaller chambered head on the Canadian 218 Plymouth, the much harder to find late 1950's Plymouth 250 ci motor which was bang on 7:8 to 1,  or a 1952-1954 Dodge truck 265 Engine which didn't

have spitfire on it but had a smaller, closed chamber head.  If you have one and can send me a picture I might have a chance to tell you what it is and what the cc's were stock.  But even there, to measure the CC's as was done by the Chrysler Engineers you need to make sure you are CCing it the same way.

Contact Tim Kingsbury on this forum ,or telephone George Asche ,as he does not do internet he may be able to pinpoint what you are looking for. Now there will be variances in head chamber CC as well as cam profiles for the 265 engine, depending on year and application. Have you determined CC volume yet?

Happy to help.  George can be reached at 814-354-2621 and I can be reached at 519-766-5695 (text or call) Tim

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Thanks all.  That is great amount of info.  I really appreciate it. 

 

The reason I want to know cc for a 265 spitfire head is to see if it's stock or not because I plan on milling it in the shop.  I have a 47 218 ply head I took .050 off of as per the book.  I knew it was stock and cc'd it, but cannot find what a 265 should cc at stock. 

 

The one I have is from a C54 engine.  I would like to get better compression on it.

 

Thanks again.

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It depends on which spitfire head, which debuted in 1941 on cars shipped to Europe with the Canadian Military  but didn't hit the civilian market until after the 2nd world war. The 265 of course debuted in 1952 and the while the head was made until late 1958 with spitfire on it, Chrysler stopped using the 265 spitfire in Cars in early 1954. There are slight differences in the head even on the 265 motors.  As someone on the thread pointed out unless you like the name Spitfire on the head, which was a tribute to the Spitfire Airplane,  there are actually better heads on other Mopar products.   Either the smaller chambered head on the Canadian 218 Plymouth, the much harder to find late 1950's Plymouth 250 ci motor which was bang on 7:8 to 1,  or a 1952-1954 Dodge truck 265 Engine which didn't

have spitfire on it but had a smaller, closed chamber head.  If you have one and can send me a picture I might have a chance to tell you what it is and what the cc's were stock.  But even there, to measure the CC's as was done by the Chrysler Engineers you need to make sure you are CCing it the same way.

Happy to help.  George can be reached at 814-354-2621 and I can be reached at 519-766-5695 (text or call) Tim

 

Here is the number on the head.  1120806-2  there is also a 3-8 stamp by the S in spitfire.

 

Can Stock cc be told from that? 

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Color me confused. . . You know the stock bore, stock stroke and stock compression ratio. With those three numbers and a reasonable guess on the installed thickness of the head gasket you should be able to compute the stock cc in the head. Might not be totally accurate but it should be close. They didn't machine the combustion area in the heads (at least not on my older car) so there probably is some slight variation from engine to engine and on a one engine from one cylinder to the next anyway.

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The best thing to do is to take it to a shop and have them CC the head.  Then measure the piston to deck and see what that is.  You know the stroke.  With these three variable plus the gasket thickness you can compute the compression ratio. 

 

 

For one CC mill 0.0034.  I would do this and check the CC at about 75% of the milling I wanted done to make sure that this number is good for that particular head.

 

All I can say is that my CC job and the final outcome tracked with the milling chart that Don C gave me.  Also, I did the original work on an NOS head.

 

BTW, a  Fel-Pro Gasket had a CC of 19.

 

James.

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Color me confused. . . You know the stock bore, stock stroke and stock compression ratio. With those three numbers and a reasonable guess on the installed thickness of the head gasket you should be able to compute the stock cc in the head. Might not be totally accurate but it should be close. They didn't machine the combustion area in the heads (at least not on my older car) so there probably is some slight variation from engine to engine and on a one engine from one cylinder to the next anyway.

The issue he has is he is not 100% sure the head is original to the engine. He also knows the engine was rebuilt and so isn't 100% sure if the block was decked

and the biggest one, being he isn't sure if the head has already been shaved.  So you are correct.  You can take the bore it is now, the stroke it is now, then the height to the top of the deck, the compressed height of the head gaskets and the cc's in the head now and calculate the compression ratio, but I think he was hoping

that he could cc the head, be able to compare it to a stock number and know how much it has been shaved.  That is where it gets complicated as there are a number of different head configurations that net different volumes (ccs) and even for the same head part number there is a range.

 

Powerhouse is in California,  home of hard to find higher octane fuel or fuel without ethanol  and when your dealing with 91 octane fuel with ethanol as your readily available premium fuel then the compression ratio starts to become a little more important.

 

Where I am, I can still buy non-ethanol gas all over the place and its easy to find 100-105 octane fuel in which case compression ratio isn't as important as

valve clearance. For me, if the valves are not hitting the head, drive on drive on.

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Hey Powerhouse, lots of opinions and speculation on how you are supposed to guess what you actually have.

Kinda a like betting on best place to drill for oil.

Tim , has outlined, the importance on your situation, fuel availability etc.

Have you consulted the knowledgeable on this circumstance, namely Tim k or George Asche.

You will get an expert assessment from either Gent, no point in those just adding opinions, as we all know opinions are like farts every one has them.

You have a head that could have been planed 2 times, a block decked, a head from another engine, many possibilities and variations over 70 years.

Good Luck, pretty sure Tim k or George A, can help you... 

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Hello all, 

 

I was able to text with Tim K and he was a wealth of knowledge on the subject.  Thanks much Tim!  I will be able to get mor emeasurements soon but am busy with  a few other things around the house before I can go play in the garage. hahaha  I did however have a chance to pull the motor apart.  Figured the block is 5/19/54 dated and the head is late 53 dated.  Block hasn't been milled from the looks of the seat dimples (that sounds funny).   I spent most of friday night and saturday removing what was left of the water tube.  Did a pressure wash to the interior afterwards to remove lots of crud and water tube fragments.  Man what a mess. 

 

I will hopefully get some time to do the cc stuff soon.

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Hello all, 

 

 

  I spent most of friday night and saturday removing what was left of the water tube.  Did a pressure wash to the interior afterwards to remove lots of crud and water tube fragments.  Man what a mess. 

 

I will hopefully get some time to do the cc stuff soon.

It might be a good idea to soak the block in a tub filled with vinegar. Or at least stand the block up on it's end and fill the water tube area full of vinegar. Vinegar eats rust like nobody's business,and this could save you some grief in the future.

 

Make sure you flush it out good after letting it sit for a few days.

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I did some reading and found that some say to just change the cam for better running with todays crappy fuel.  In Kalifornia we do not have easy access to real gas.  Any thoughts on cam change from stock? or whatever's in there...

I was surprised a couple of years ago to find that my old Plymouth had a lot worse problem with vapor lock when I filled the tank in Arizona. I was expecting to get "real" or at least "better" gas once I crossed the state line. But even though the temperatures were only in the 80s I had issues with long periods of hot idle or dying shortly after a hot start (aways cured by cooling down the fuel pump). In California I'd only experience that when the temperatures were close to or above 100.

 

Asking around a bit, I came to the conclusion that California is about the only place in the US where the volatility of gasoline motor fuel is regulated. That is one of the things that makes the gas here a special blend with all the issues that brings on.

 

But it also means that for a low pressure vented fuel system (i.e. old fashioned carburetor) the gas will boil at a higher temperature and thus resist vapor lock better. Almost all cars nowadays are fuel injected with relatively high pressure fuel systems so volatility is not a drivability issue with a modern car and unless they are required to, refiners don't worry about making the gas with lots of light ends that boil off at low temperatures.

 

On my return to California on that trip, the car started behaving much better on the first tank of California gas.

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I did some reading and found that some say to just change the cam for better running with todays crappy fuel.  In Kalifornia we do not have easy access to real gas.  Any thoughts on cam change from stock? or whatever's in there...

Sadly the cam change that would improve that is counter productive to helping give you more performance in a flathead.  Lack of octane level, and adding in ethanol is a recipe for bad performance.   So there is 100 octane race fuel out there in California, but it is beyond stupid priced.    I guess its another cost to live in California. Sorry

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They used to let us buy low lead blue out at the local airport......roooma zoom zoom!

Ah  haven't heard the term blue fuel used for a while.  At out local airport that was 100 octane, and of course no ethanol. I think it was called 100LL and the low lead was so it didn't foul plugs up

 

Green was the mid range avgas which was around 110 I believe  and Purple was the high test Avgas fuel and it was 115 octane. The mid and higher range had more lead.

 

I know now its changed and there is 93UL (ethanol free), 94UL which is the 100LL but lead free, 100SF Swift Fuel and the best fuel we have around us is

Shell Unleaded 100-Octane Fuel  which is actually better than 100 octane I am told.  They have some additive pack and its 105 octane,  no lead, no ethanol.

Its color..     Purple!

 

You can still buy all of them, provided you have approved containers around me.   A friend who flies a plane with pistons and turbo chargers tells me it is available

in California airports, although he couldn't tell me if you can buy it without a plane..

 

Tim

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Ah  haven't heard the term blue fuel used for a while.  At out local airport that was 100 octane, and of course no ethanol. I think it was called 100LL and the low lead was so it didn't foul plugs up

 

Green was the mid range avgas which was around 110 I believe  and Purple was the high test Avgas fuel and it was 115 octane. The mid and higher range had more lead.

 

I know now its changed and there is 93UL (ethanol free), 94UL which is the 100LL but lead free, 100SF Swift Fuel and the best fuel we have around us is

Shell Unleaded 100-Octane Fuel  which is actually better than 100 octane I am told.  They have some additive pack and its 105 octane,  no lead, no ethanol.

Its color..     Purple!

 

You can still buy all of them, provided you have approved containers around me.   A friend who flies a plane with pistons and turbo chargers tells me it is available

in California airports, although he couldn't tell me if you can buy it without a plane..

 

Tim

I can still buy it around,but since it is a violation of feral law to use it in vehicles driven on public roads,the airport insists you park outside the area where the gas pumps are,and hand carry your gasoline cans to the pumps. You also have to tell them the gas is for use in your lawnmower or similar off-road equipment.

 

No big deal for most people,but when you are old and have all sorts of physical problems,carrying a couple of 5 gallon cans of gas 100 yards is a major pain in the Obama. I mostly do it once a year right about the time I start cutting grass for what I think is the last time because the leaded gas is still good new spring when you start it  up again,and you don't have to rebuild the carburetor and flush out your tank and lines.

 

I'd buy it all the time if they would let me drive my truck up to the pumps to fill the cans,but they won't do that.

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I was able to cc the head and got 120cc.

I have to edit the original number of 120 I mentioned above. I made a mistake. I did the procedure in a better environment and with better sealing. I got 100 to 105 across all .

Edited by Powerhouse
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