Steering box re-build

[wings515]

Hello,

I have been searching for what seems to be months for a service to re-build the Steering Box on my 39 Plymouth PT81 Pickup truck.

This is a Gemmer box with casting number 12132 C5.  Also stamped on the top is 651.  I saw Rock Auto has a service to re-build a 39 Dodge Truck for $275.  The re-build is done by Lares Corp and when I called to see if they could do the Plymouth box they quoted me $359 plus shipping.  The Rock Auto site also lists the Plymouth P7 and P8 along with the Dodge Truck as part of their service but an email from them states"If it is not listed we do not do it".

 

Now to the question, is the Dodge Truck box assembly including the shaft the same as the Plymouth P7 and P8.

 

I have even looked into replacing the original box with one from Vintage Power Wagons that would require a cut down of the shaft outer tube and a new Steering Wheel since the shaft diameter is different.  If I go the route of the Power Wagon, the box assembly is $250 but I have to add to that $195 for a Steering wheel and another $7.50 for the nut.  This gets me above the re-build cost.

 

I have looked in the Hollander Cross reference manual and it shows the PT81 as a single year part for the box. The bolt pattern at the chassis is 3 3/4" X 2 1/2" and there are 4 holes.  I have seen 1934 Ford's with the same style box but have not investigated any interchangeability.

 

Does anyone know of other re-builders on the East Coast.  Shipping of this assembly is also going to be a challenge since the steering shaft is going to be connected to the box.

 

By the way I have spent many many hours trying to adjust the 1-1 1/2 " play out of the wheel with no success.

 

Thanks for reading this rambling.

 

Regards,

wings515

 

[Young Ed]

I would be shocked if that box doesn't at least interchange with 39 dodge trucks. There are 2 boxes for 39-47 trucks. Early and late.

[HanksB3B]

Hope this helps

 

http://p15-d24.com/topic/19395-steering-box/

 

Hank 

[PT81Jan]

I had a similar issue with the steering box of my PT81. Too much free play. I would not have get a permission of the German TÜV ( technical approval organization for vehicles, etc.)

Since the worm and roller tooth did not show too much wear, I filled the stearing housing completely with high pressure grease. In combination with a meticulous adjustment it reduced the play at least by the half.

Better would be a complete overhauling, of course ... Good luck in either way !

Edited February 1, 2016 by PT81Jan

[wings515]

Hello PT81Jan,

I  have tried that trick but the rotational play is still annoying when driving.  It looks like an actor driving a fake car in the movies moving the wheel back and forth.  Nice to know that the PT81 made it across the pond to Germany.  I have a very good friend in Luchow.  My daughter and son-in-law spent a year in Bad Hamberg during a work transfer.  The firm they worked for in the US was bought by a German firm and they did the production transfer.  We met them for a week vacation.  Prior to that, I did some training in Germany for HP and made a friend who now lives in Luchow.

I did find a firm that will re-build the box but they want $395 plus return shipping.  If I can not find an alternative, I'll have to save my pennies and have them do it.

I'll post the outcome when I finally make a decision.

Thanks for the reply.

[Young Ed]

I show mopar part # 579789 for PT81 PT105 and PT125. This is for steering gear chuck assembly. I show that same # for WC and WD 15 20 21 in a late 1941 parts book. So you should be good with a 39-41 plymouth or a 39-41 dodge 1/2-1ton. Not sure if the # changed post war for the dodges.

 

Edit: found the serial # breakdown. Sometime in the W model run the part # changed so you need the early version.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Young Ed

[austinsailor]

It doesn't sound like it's been disassembled, just adjusted from the outside.

If the worm and sector are not worn badly, it could be as simple as adjusting by adding or removing shims, or replacing worn or damaged bearings. All but the worm and sector are easily found.

Figure out exactly where the play is, go from there. These are not hard to work on.

[wings515]

Thanks so much 'Young Ed' for this valuable information.  Your posting had a Blue link to a 1941 Parts Book.  This opened a Chevy Parts Price List.  Do you have the cross reference part numbers for the Plymouth vs. the Dodge.  Also, I found the Rock Auto Supply lists the 39 Dodge Truck and the Plymouth P7 and P8 as being the same.  Do you think that is true?  The Hollander book lists only the PT81 with the 579789 part number.  Also found some bad reviews of Lares rebuild service.  More of a bait and switch with final prices around $700.

Thanks again,

[Young Ed]

Thanks so much 'Young Ed' for this valuable information.  Your posting had a Blue link to a 1941 Parts Book.  This opened a Chevy Parts Price List.  Do you have the cross reference part numbers for the Plymouth vs. the Dodge.  Also, I found the Rock Auto Supply lists the 39 Dodge Truck and the Plymouth P7 and P8 as being the same.  Do you think that is true?  The Hollander book lists only the PT81 with the 579789 part number.  Also found some bad reviews of Lares rebuild service.  More of a bait and switch with final prices around $700.

Thanks again,

That 579789 # didn't show for any plymouth cars in my book which covers 36-48.

[wings515]

PT81Jan, I changed the rear because the original had over 90 of slop in the pinion shaft.  I had a 41 rear end and after changing the positions of the spring perches, I have a rear with no slop.  According to the P7,P8 manual, the rear can have a ratio of 3.54 to 4.3 with in between 3.73, 3.9 and 4.1. This is dependent on the tire size.  Those being 5.24 X 20", 5.50 X 16", 6.0 X 18", 6.0 X 16".

When I get the truck back into the 'working' garage, I'll make a rotational measurement.

 

Thanks for the invite to a ride in your truck.  It will be quite a while before we can afford the travel expense  to cross the pond.

 

Regards,

wings515

[wings515]

To all who have helped so far, here is an interum update.  I checked on the feedback of Lares Sterring Box Rebuilders.  I am not impressed.  After talking with them they wanted $395 for a rebuild.  At least 2 folks stated it was a bait and switch with a final cost of $700 and some needed to return to get the box correct.

 

As an alternative, I found a box at the "Vintage Power Wagon" site.  The shaft is 1 1/2" shorter.  I have to check the Pitman arm shaft diameter to see if the Power Wagon box is a fit.  If it does, a new PW box is 4250.  I will need a new steering wheel since the PW shaft is bigger but the combination is still less.

 

Just waiting to move the truck to the 'working' garage.

 

 

Regards,

wings515

[bkahler]

What about this company for rebuilding steering gear boxes?  

 

http://www.steeringgears.net/

 

I know nothing about them but I'm in the same boat as you are with the steering gearbox from my 51 B3B.  It's extremely sloppy and needs to be rebuilt or replaced.

 

Brad 

1951 B3B

 

[wings515]

My idea of using a Power Wagon box in my PT81 just got shot down.  The PW sector shaft is 1.25" diameter and the PT81 is 1.125".  A new Pitman arm from VPW is $449 so that solution is out of the question.

Inquiring if VPW knew of a rebuild service Jens ( Parts Specialist at VPW) stated that they do it.  A basic rebuild is $400.  If a new or reworked sector or worm is required, then it could go to $700.  I feel much more confident at VPW than at Lares.

Sometime in the next week or two I'll be pulling the box and shipping it to Iowa.  Don't know what that will cost but it's just part of owning an antique.

 

Regards,

wings515

[Merle Coggins]

Good luck.

Let us know how it turns out.

[ggdad1951]

My idea of using a Power Wagon box in my PT81 just got shot down.  The PW sector shaft is 1.25" diameter and the PT81 is 1.125".  A new Pitman arm from VPW is $449 so that solution is out of the question.

Inquiring if VPW knew of a rebuild service Jens ( Parts Specialist at VPW) stated that they do it.  A basic rebuild is $400.  If a new or reworked sector or worm is required, then it could go to $700.  I feel much more confident at VPW than at Lares.

Sometime in the next week or two I'll be pulling the box and shipping it to Iowa.  Don't know what that will cost but it's just part of owning an antique.

 

Regards,

wings515

 

I hear ya...I dropped $2000 on getting parts made to have the right hardware for the spare tire carrier on FEF...still waiting (3 years now and counting) to break even on that expense as the rest of the production run parts sell thru my consignment vendor.

[Desotodav]

I must have done well with the expense of rebuilding my 53 truck steering box/s. We have a tenant in one of our industrial sheds who repairs CV joints on vehicles and it turns out that he knows how to repair old MOPAR truck steering boxes. I delivered him the steering box from my 53 truck and he rebuilt it, but he was not completely happy with it so I dropped him another steering box. He rebuilt the second one and said that it was much better than the first one. I have to admit though that I was a little surprised when he told me that $150 (for rebuilding 2 steering boxes) should cover it!

From memory, I had a different fella rebuild the steering box for my 52 truck about 5 years ago and the bill was around $400 as he said that it was "badly worn and parts were expensive".

[Dodgeb4ya]

What did the tenant replace to fix ( rebuild ) your'e steering box?

A new sector, a new worm or new bearings and couple of seals...

Sectors and worms are pretty hard to find now days.

[Desotodav]

What did the tenant replace to fix ( rebuild ) your'e steering box?

A new sector, a new worm or new bearings and couple of seals...

Sectors and worms are pretty hard to find now days.

 

The steering box for my 52 had well worn parts on the worm shaft and the reel which he told me he welded and ground back. He also replaced bearings and seals and adjusted it up. I think he had most of the parts NOS back then and just welded/machined what he didn't have. That truck has done about 3300 miles since then and still steers like new!

 

I believe the 2 steering boxes for the 53 truck were both in reasonable condition and didn't need much done. He did rebuild the the first one which I supplied him but said that it was more worn than the second one, so I have installed the second one but don't have the truck on the road yet.

 

I have heard (from a couple of smart sources) that it's best to run different oil (think one said corn flour oil?... and the other said thicker oil) in the steering boxes of our Oz trucks as they heat up more (on this side of the pond) from the exhaust blowing back onto the steering box on our right-hand-drive vehicles.... an interesting theory with possibly some good logic !!!

[Frank Elder]

The steering box for my 52 had well worn parts on the worm shaft and the reel which he told me he welded and ground back. He also replaced bearings and seals and adjusted it up. I think he had most of the parts NOS back then and just welded/machined what he didn't have. That truck has done about 3300 miles since then and still steers like new!

 

I believe the 2 steering boxes for the 53 truck were both in reasonable condition and didn't need much done. He did rebuild the the first one which I supplied him but said that it was more worn than the second one, so I have installed the second one but don't have the truck on the road yet.

 

I have heard (from a couple of smart sources) that it's best to run different oil (think one said corn flour oil?... and the other said thicker oil) in the steering boxes of our Oz trucks as they heat up more (on this side of the pond) from the exhaust blowing back onto the steering box on our right-hand-drive vehicles.... an interesting theory with possibly some good logic !!!

 

John Deere Corn Head Grease. 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Frank Elder

[Dodgeb4ya]

I use the same grease as shown above.. John Deere  NLGI grade 0 

I think I want NLGI grade 00 though.. a bit more pourable.

Most all common grease is #2

[Don Coatney]

I also am using JD corn head grease. I went a step further and added a grease zerk to the top plate of the steering gearbox so I can fill it with a grease gun.

 

[wings515]

After much investigation, I am left with two options.  I am waiting for a worm gear from a Ford supplier.  My original worm from Ford had the worm threads going in the opposite pitch.  All other dimensions were correct.  Just for kicks and grins, I ordered a right hand drive Ford worm to see if it will fit.  I do know my worm has a 17 ratio, it is stamped on the worm.  By Friday I'll know how I stand.  If this does not work, I'm investing $275 from Len Dawson for a new worm/shaft part.

Inspecting my worm shows lots of wear and I can not adjust the center slop to be less than 2"

 

Continuing the saga.

 

Regards,

wings515

[wings515]

Well I am still at it.  I did remove the box from the truck and put it on the bench.  I had the bushings measured and they were within .001" of nominal.  My sector shaft was as good as the new one I purchased. Inspecting the worm gear showed a large amount of wear.  Since this worm is similar to the ones used in Ford's, I ordered a 17 ratio gear from Mac Auto.  The length, diameter and pitch were correct but the threads were CCW, opposite the original.  Returned and purchased a Right Hand drive worm.  Diameter correct, length  correct, CW screw correct BUT the pitch was wrong and that is the only RH worm they have.

I finally broke down and bought a complete worm and shaft from Len Dawson $275.

Waiting for it to arrive.

 

Regards,

wings515

[Jocko_51_B3B]

I just took apart the steering box on my 52 b3b and the worm and worm gear are badly pitted. Luckily I have another box from a 50 b2b and the gears are good. The filler plug says to use "heavy gear oil" but I read that some posters are using something called John Deere NLGI grade 0 or 00 Corn Head Grease. Is Corn Head Grease better than heavy gear oil or are they about the same? And how much grease / oil should be added? Should the box be filled up to the filler hole, just half way, or what?

[Jerry Roberts]

Fill it pretty much to the top .