P15 Motor Serial Used for VIN vs Body Number - DMV Screw Up?

[fedoragent]

Hey Folks,

 

I was filling out my Build Record Request form for the Chrysler Museum...and realized something.  Well well before me, the California DMV screwed up.  Although I am not surprised, I'm uncertain how to handle it and wanted to get your opinion.  I noticed that the California DMV used the serial number on the block of the engine (the one that starts P15...) rather than the body number in the door jam.  It is on the title, it's on the registration, it's on the insurance...

 

If you were me, would you attempt to fix the problem....or just make sure the motor stays with the car?  It is of course the DMV and they'd screw up changing a light bulb...

 

What do you guys think?  Would it create more trouble than it would turn out well?

 

Thanks ahead of time and Merry Christmas!

 

Jon

[Plymouthy Adams]

^{well..you  have two options and I would suggest you discuss this with the DMV....for the time, these cars were predominantly registered by the engine number....if an engine was changed it was the owners responsibility to notify and correct through the DMV.  You will also have this engine number on your left frame rail at tip up over the axle and thus if your engine was changed due to damage..the chassis will continue the identification.  OR  you can verify both ore than not with a special form issued by the DMV  ( is so in two states I have lived) for an officer to verify all matching numbers assigned and verify that the car is for a fact properly represented.  Just did this on two cars last week..this form was also accepted by the state the car was sold and later to be titled as signed by my state law officer.  You need to talk to a very knowledgeable DMV rep in your area and get step by step.  They can be very helpful, just let them know you are in need of their expertise as others have given you a runaround...}

[Young Ed]

Yes as Tim said it wasn't a screw up. Many states did that. Dads 40 ply is that way and the replacement block was restamped with the correct #. Another practice was titling by calendar year rather than model year. Dads former 50 was sold in 49 and titled a 49.

[RodFru2u]

I have messed with the California DMV many times, LEAVE IT ALONE !!!!!  Like you said, They can only screw it up. When the 1951 MG TD fell out of their records for 30+ years, It took an original " Pink Slip " and a  Cal 1964 Registration that my Pop had in his records to convince them to keep the original Black Plates we still had. We even took it to the CHP for inspection to match the engine numbers on the pink slip they still needed to see paper work. Just my 2c

[knuckleharley]

Hey Folks,

 

I was filling out my Build Record Request form for the Chrysler Museum...and realized something.  Well well before me, the California DMV screwed up.  Although I am not surprised, I'm uncertain how to handle it and wanted to get your opinion.  I noticed that the California DMV used the serial number on the block of the engine (the one that starts P15...) rather than the body number in the door jam.  It is on the title, it's on the registration, it's on the insurance...

 

If you were me, would you attempt to fix the problem....or just make sure the motor stays with the car?  It is of course the DMV and they'd screw up changing a light bulb...

 

What do you guys think?  Would it create more trouble than it would turn out well?

 

Thanks ahead of time and Merry Christmas!

 

Jon

I think you had better fix it right now while it is fresh and you are able to fix it. Some states,like Va,used motor serial numbers instead of chassis or body numbers,and now some states,like NC,will refuse to give you a title if if the car or truck you bought in Va has a clear title using the motor number,and that motor is still in the chassis if it doesn't match the chassis and body (if applicable) numbers. I know a guy in that position right now. IF you sell the car to someone and they are unable to get a title,they can sue you for fraud.

 

Yes,I know about the Interstate Commerce Clause and how it would apply in cases like this and nullify any NC DMV laws,but the NC DMV doesn't seem to give a damn because nobody can really afford to hire a lawyer to sue the state without spending 10+ times the value of the vehicle,and then end up losing because they have to sue the state in a state court,and then appeal it to a federal court after losing.

 

Plus the state employees doing this can't even be fired,never mind sued personally for violating your rights.

Edited December 17, 2015 by knuckleharley

[wayfarer]

As mentioned, find a dmv office without a 3-hr waiting line...if that is even possible.... or ask around at one of your local wrecking yards or tow yards to see if they have the name of an employee that you could contact. The yards do a lot of title work and not doubt have a work-around- method.

[Mark Haymond]

It ain't broke so don't fix it. I am in California. Yep, they used the P15 engine serial number for registration back then. My local CHP understood this when I took mine in to get it registered and safety inspected so don't assume they are all dumb and you are going to get the run around. I think you are in a good position, you really don't have to change anything. Your have all matching numbers on your vehicle which is pretty cool.

[P15-D24]

Fix is relative easy if you want to do it. DMV has a form where you can change it and you need a CHP to verify both numbers before DMV will accept the change.  Probably would be a good idea as if you ever replace the engine it be hard to fix the paper work after the fact. 

[JimPruitt]

First post - been reading and learning while starting restoration of a '37 Dodge business man's coupe.

 

Had a similar problem with a '49 Pontiac.  Original MS title with engine serial number instead of the VIN.  Bought and titled it in TN - where VINs are not checked, then moved to Ohio.  Knowing Ohio checks VINs, I went looking for the VIN and found the issue.  I had the original GM build/ship paperwork that tied the VIN and engine serial number together.  Ohio accepted that and issued an Ohio title, but told me I would have had a hard time without it since someone with with a title tied to just an engine could put the engine in a "stolen" auto to title the stolen car.  Why anyone would do that rather than transfer the VIN tag from another car is a question for another post.

 

At any rate, I would recommend changing the title to contain the VIN instead of the engine number so any future owner won't run into a problem trying to title the car in another state.

 

Appreciate all the information and knowledge I have received so far from all of you.  When I get a little further along on the Dodge, I'll start posting some info on the progress and, no doubt, have some questions to test your collective knowledge.

 

Jim

[JerseyHarold]

I'd ask enough questions at the DMV to be sure about the procedure and whether or not you are jeopardizing the title that you already have.  I changed from engine number to VIN on several of my old Plymouths when I lived in NY and it was very easy.  As others have said, doing so now may prevent bigger headaches down the road.

 

In California, I think they have independent motor vehicle agents that can assist you for a fee.  It might be money well spent to contact one.

Edited December 17, 2015 by JerseyHarold

[48mirage]

Jim,

 

You use the term VIN to describe the tag on the door jamb.  That is not the VIN, Mother Mopar called that the body number.  As posted elsewhere I would take a look at the drivers side frame rail just before the rear axle.  That is the true identification of the vehicle.

[Plymouthy Adams]

both are true identifications...depends on what the state used at the time when processing the certificate of origin...I have no clue what my car was or was not process with....state of Georgia did not issues titles till after 62 and to this day will not issue a title for a car 62 and back.....don't care where it comes from or what title you may have now...it WILL become a broken chain title if it passes through GA

Edited December 18, 2015 by Plymouthy Adams

[B-Watson]

The tag on the door jamb was the Serial Number or chassis number.   The engine number was usually stamped onto the chassis frame on the driver's side of the car and the chassis number on the right.

 

The Body Number was attached to the cowl of the body under the hood and was not stamped onto the chassis frame. The style of the tag could differ between supplier - Chrysler, Briggs, Budd, Murray, Hayes, etc.

 

Canadian-built 1936 to 1965 cars had the body number stamped onto the plate attached under hood which also had the model number, paint code and trim code.  

[Captain Neon]

I almost had problems in Kansas.  They do a vehicle number verification before a title can be issued.  The car was purchased new in Minnesota and was titled with the serial number, it had a new engine installed at the dealership (no number stamped on block), and then a 230 from a '56 Dodge was installed in 2000.  It was titled in two other states without issue as they accepted the serial number as the vehicle number.  The serial number had been its ID for 65 years.  Kansas, however, insisted that my title was wrong and did not match the vehicle since my vehicle number did not match the engine number.  They ended up filing an investigation where they checked to make sure that the engine was not from a stolen car.  Little chance that the engine number would come up as a stolen car as the car it had come from was titled by serial number, and was parted out after I pulled the engine.  In the end, I got a Kansas title that listed my vehicle as the same serial number that it had been for 65 years.  Two subsequent interstate moves, and the serial number remains my vehicle's identification number as it has been for almost 70 years.  Don't get me started however on the pain in the neck I had recently where the local licence bureau issued my title to my father who owned the car prior to me despite two prior Minnesota titles in my name.  Car is now in my name as it has been for over 15 years, but a little concerning had something happened to both of my parents before getting correct title.

[JimPruitt]

48mirage,

 

Thanks for the info on where Mopar put serial numbers.  Unfortunately, GM didn't stamp serial numbers on Pontiac frames when my '49 was built.  The only serial numbers are the ones on the engine and body.  My '31 Pontiac has a frame mounted serial number though.  Go figure!

 

Jim

[Plymouthy Adams]

couple of my early 70's collector cars are numbered on about every panel be it frame, hood, deck lid, other metal panels or hand laid fiberglass interior forms...not for theft at that time as it is today..but because these cars were hand built and fitted..even the engine though stamped at the factory from mopar as supplied to the builder is again hand stamped specific to the car..

[fedoragent]

So folks, here is what I have decided.  I've decided that I'm going to go over to my CSAA that has four DMV Specialists and ask them.  I had a CHP officer tell me that he wouldn't touch it as it would create more trouble.  But as our moderator has said, it should be a simple form to make the correction.  With that being said, I also have to call the insurance folks and go through their procedure.  But, I know one thing will be sure...I'm going to have to make sure in both systems they are VERY detailed in what is going on.  I just don't want to give CA DMV any wiggle room to screw anything up.  But, I've decided that something very well may need to be done in the event that the old girl and her motor are separated.

 

Jon

[stan's52]

If you have the car in your possession I would not mess with it. When I attempted to register my 52 I found out there were several numbers being used. I used the frame number. I would just leave it alone if I were you. I can guarantee if you want to change the number it will be a trip to the CHP and a long wait while they do a check on you, and The car. California DMV screwed up my 68 Yamaha DT 1 when I brought it back from the dead.

Just because it had knobby tires they called it a MX Yamaha, which is a off road

model. I didn't realize it until I was at the window. I just let it be. Stan

[Chuck51631]

My 55 Plymouth is registered with the number stamped on the engine block as the vin number. The car was originally registered in NY. When I moved to Florida a sheriff had to verify the vin number. I showed it to him and he signed off on the paperwork so I could register the car.

I asked him what would happen if I changed the engine and the numbers will no longer match. He told me you get a form from the DMV have a sheriff verify the number coming out of the car and the number on the motor going into the car. He signs off on it and you bring it to the DMV and they change the number on the registration and title.

[TodFitch]

When I purchased my '33 back in '73 the New York paperwork had the engine number. In '74 when I moved to Maryland I asked the clerk at the DMV if they could use the serial number instead. I handed her a scrap of paper where I'd written down the engine, serial and body numbers I had found on the car.

 

She asked me to wait and then disappeared for about 45 minutes. When she came back she said the numbers all matched and there would be no problem having the Maryland paperwork use the serial number. At the time I figured she just took a long coffee break using the research as an excuse. But now I think she might have had someone contact the Chrysler Historical (or what ever the equivalent was back then) and actually checked that the numbers matched.

 

When I moved to California in '78 they accepted the serial number from the Maryland paperwork but did have a fellow at the DMV look at the car to make sure the serial number was actually on the car.

 

For what its worth, I've seen some really, really old copies of California registration forms that had fields for both the engine number and car serial number. So back in the day they might have been tracking both. I am guessing they probably dropped one of those fields and converted the other to VIN when VIN numbers came along losing the correlation between serial and engine numbers.

[OldDad67]

Hey Folks,

 

I was filling out my Build Record Request form for the Chrysler Museum...and realized something.  Well well before me, the California DMV screwed up.  Although I am not surprised, I'm uncertain how to handle it and wanted to get your opinion.  I noticed that the California DMV used the serial number on the block of the engine (the one that starts P15...) rather than the body number in the door jam.  It is on the title, it's on the registration, it's on the insurance...

 

If you were me, would you attempt to fix the problem....or just make sure the motor stays with the car?  It is of course the DMV and they'd screw up changing a light bulb...

 

What do you guys think?  Would it create more trouble than it would turn out well?

 

Thanks ahead of time and Merry Christmas!

 

Jon

I had a similar problem with an Oregon titled vehicle. The title had the engine number for a VIN. I live in Washingon state, so I called the Wa DMV and they said the engine had to be in the car after I had just removed the rear crossmember. So I put a chain across the frame and chained the engine down took the car to the state police inspection station, showed them the stamped engine number on the block and title. I told them I wanted to change the VIN to the tag number on the driver's "A" pillar which they did. Now I have a good Wa title and will not have any issues in the future. I did this to prevent problems before I spent a bunch of money only to find out later that I may have a problem selling the car in the future. So if I do decide to sell the car the small block Chevy will show as a correct engine for the car. (OK Tim now you can comment).

[James_Douglas]

I think you had better fix it right now while it is fresh and you are able to fix it. Some states,like Va,used motor serial numbers instead of chassis or body numbers,and now some states,like NC,will refuse to give you a title if if the car or truck you bought in Va has a clear title using the motor number,and that motor is still in the chassis if it doesn't match the chassis and body (if applicable) numbers. I know a guy in that position right now. IF you sell the car to someone and they are unable to get a title,they can sue you for fraud.

 

Yes,I know about the Interstate Commerce Clause and how it would apply in cases like this and nullify any NC DMV laws,but the NC DMV doesn't seem to give a damn because nobody can really afford to hire a lawyer to sue the state without spending 10+ times the value of the vehicle,and then end up losing because they have to sue the state in a state court,and then appeal it to a federal court after losing.

 

Plus the state employees doing this can't even be fired,never mind sued personally for violating your rights.

 

My 1949 Desoto which was my late mothers and I got it back 48 months ago...

 

Was first sold to her in VA new in 1949.  The car was driven, by her to California in 1956.

 

The it went to collector who sat on it from 1970 until I pulled it from his shop, not register by him, a few years back.

 

The California paperwork had the engine number and not the body number.  My 1947 Desoto sold new in CA had the body number by the way.

 

I had to do some paperwork with THE SPECIAL PROCESSING UNIT OF CA DMV, to get them to swap it.  A California Highway Patrol, not local police, had to come to my house and confirm the number on the door.  Then send it off to them and they made the change.

 

Call the SPU not the local office or the 800 number as they do not know anything and 1/2 of everything they think they know is wrong.

 

These are all the numbers I have for the SPU.  May be good may not.

 

 

800-777-0133

916-657-6560

916-657-7654

916-657-8506 or 8099

 

Good luck.

 

James

[choptop40]

The rear driver side frame rail has the engine vin...leave it be...you're good to go....

[James_Douglas]

The rear driver side frame rail has the engine vin...leave it be...you're good to go....

On the 1949, convertible, it is not in the rear, I am assuming you meant on the arch as is on some cars, but on the mid frame section before the wheel arch.

 

James

Edited January 6, 2016 by James_Douglas

[fedoragent]

On the 1949, convertible, it is not in the rear, I am assuming you meant on the arch as is on some cars, but on the mid frame section before the wheel arch.

 

James

 

God, thank you from one San Franciscan to another.  I have been under the blinking car recently and have been looking for that.  I hadn't found it and now I know exactly where to look!

 

Jon