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Help needed with rear axle seal part no's please.


61farnham

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Hi all, 

 

Can someone give me an up to date part no. for the rear inner axle seal on a 1948 Plymouth with standard rear end please.

 

I'm in the middle of fixing a leaky rear end to get the car to Robin's P15 picnic here in the U.K. on Sunday. I ordered a set of seals from Rockauto but the inner they've supplied is too big both in diameter and width which has a part no. National 450776. The inner seal i've just removed had a part no. SKF 13797 which according to  Rockauto's listings is an alternative for the outer seal and it does looks the same as the outer seal Rockauto supplied which has a part no. National 6241S which is the same no. as the old outer seal in my brake plate.  

 

Are the inner and outers the same or has a previous owners fitted the wrong seal? 

 

Any help gratefully received.

 

Regards.......... Simon.

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Cheers for the link Tod, I didn't realise there are two different inner seals for for early/later P15's.

 

I've checked my parts book and it gives the dimensions for the two seals with both having an outer diameter of 2.443" and a width of 0.5" the early seal an inner diameter of 1" 7/32 and the later at 1" 27/64. My car having a serial no 25041904 should use the later seal.

 

I'm still a bit confused though, on your Plymouth Parts Interchange it gives 2 alternative no's for the early seal -  

 

 

651678 Axle drive shaft oil washer assembly (inside)   Interchange/Vendor:     C/R 13892       NAPA NOS 13797

 

and one for the later seal-

 

1139896 Axle drive shaft oil washer assembly (inside)   Interchange/Vendor:     Skf 13892 Per posting by P15-D24 forum member.

 

with the skf 13892 listed in both.

 

I've checked that no on Rockauto and it gives the dimensions as follows- 

 

SKF 13892

 

Width (in)0.5

Shaft (in)1.375

Bore (in)2.686

Outer Diameter (in)2.69

 

The napa 13797 which was the same part no. as the inner seal I removed measures up at

 

Part Number: NOS 13797
Product Line: NAPA Oil Seals
 
Attributes:
Wheel Seal I.D. : 1.375"
Wheel Seal O.D. : 2.441"
Wheel Seal Width : .25"

The inner seal that Rockauto supplied to me, part no. National 450776, measures up the same as the Skf 13892 but this doesn't fit in my axle being a too large outer diameter.

I've also measured up the outer seal Rockauto supplied, part no. National  6241s which matches the part no. off the old outer seal from the car, and it's the same as the Skf  13797 !!!!!!

 

I'll have to see if I can find anything locally tommorrow to match the dimensions given in the parts book

 

regards .........Simon.

Edited by 61farnham
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I've just found these old posts 

 

http://p15-d24.com/topic/7820-rear-axle-bearing-part-numbers/?hl=13892#entry66408

 

http://p15-d24.com/topic/37906-rear-axle-outer-and-inner-seals-new-skf-numbers/?hl=13892

 

looks like the Skf 13892 fits '49 P18 cars and onwards

 

and the 13797 is an alternative no. for the outer seal which means a previous owner fitted an outer seal in place of the inner  :mad:  no wonder it's leaking.

 

All becoming clearer now just need to find a replacement for the inners.

Edited by 61farnham
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according to my National Oil seals catalog

 

1948 Plymouth

 

front wheel  5836

rear wheel 6241

 

rear Inner seals  1948 early 2.690 OD  6339  victor   49573

rear inner seals  1948 later 2.690 w/spring 50776  victor  49577

 

 

font wheel Victor number  4937

rear seel  victor  46292

 

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com   all info taken either from my National Oil seals catalog and or Victor seal catalog

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Thanks for that info Rich, appreciate your input.

 

Those  National no's tally up with the seals I was supplied with, my problem is the inner seal looks too big to fit my axle housing.

It has an outer diameter of 2.690" but my P15 parts book is giving the outer diameter as 2.443" which is the same as the seal I removed.

 

Not sure what I'm missing here, hopefully time will tell! 

 

2015 10 02 11.43.05 2

 
Hoping to source something locally later on today.
 
Regards ........... Simon.

 

 

 

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Thanks for that info Rich, appreciate your input.

 

Those  National no's tally up with the seals I was supplied with, my problem is the inner seal looks too big to fit my axle housing.

It has an outer diameter of 2.690" but my P15 parts book is giving the outer diameter as 2.443" which is the same as the seal I removed.

 

Not sure what I'm missing here, hopefully time will tell! 

 

 
 
Hoping to source something locally later on today.
 
Regards ........... Simon.

 

over the weekend I will check my victor catalog and try to match up against the mopar number to see what we come up with.  This is why having a repair manual is so important..  Send me you home email address. 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

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ok I had my cd of gaskets with me at work. Looked in my Victor Seals Xross ref catalog.  The Chrysler number 651678  matches to the victor number 49209

 

the Chrysler number 1139898  crosses over to the victor number 49143

Edited by desoto1939
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ok I had my cd of gaskets with me at work. Looked in my Victor Seals Xross ref catalog.  The Chrysler number 651678  matches to the victor number 49209

 

the Chrysler number 1139898  crosses over to the victor number 49143

Thanks for that! I've added those cross references to the database for my web site.

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This is turning in to a right saga, I only want a couple of seals! 

 

I've just done some searching with the last 2 Victor no's given by Rich and came across MI bearings website which gives the following info

 

VICTOR SEAL 49209 SEAL
OEM PART NUMBER: 49209
OEM Manufacturer: VICTOR
This product is manufactured by Timken and provides a compatible interchange with the VICTOR 49209.
Timken Part Number: 6241S

 

VICTOR SEAL 49143 SEAL

OEM PART NUMBER: 49143
OEM Manufacturer: VICTOR
This product is manufactured by Timken and provides a compatible interchange with the VICTOR 49143.
Timken Part Number: 470950

 

 Timken 6241s matches the outer seal no. on my car

 

Timken 470950 cross references to National 470950 which is listed on Rockauto for a Dodge truck '46 - '50 but has the dimensions as follows

 

Housing Bore (Inch)2.437

MaterialNitrile

Outer Diameter (Inch)2.441

Shaft (Inch)1.375

Width (inch)0.375

 

which is looks spot on for my axle  :)  maybe I have a truck axle ?

 

I've taken some pics of the serial no's on my diff housing so if anyone can decipher them I'd be grateful

 

2015 10 02 15.34.42

1115941-23

 

2015 10 02 15.31.14

 

2015 10 02 15.31.04

3 28 4J

 

Thanks again ...................... Simon.

 

Edited by 61farnham
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This has turned into an episode of CSI !!!

 

I've done a bit more research on these seals and i think I've found where the confusion lies 

 

In my P15 parts book, which is Oct '48 version, it shows two conflicting no's for the rear inner seals as below

 

2015 10 05 15.50.47a

 

2015 10 02 11.43.05a

 
1139896 measures    2.69"    Outer Diameter
                                   1.375"   Inner Diameter
                                   0.5"     Width 
 
and cross references with          Timken    450776
                                                   National  450776
                                                   Skf          13892
                                                   Victor      49577
                                                   Victor      49573
                                                   Mopar     1115938
 
1139898 measures   2.44"   Outer Diameter
                                 1.375"  Inner Diameter
                                 0.5"      Width
 
and cross references with   Timken   470950
                                            National 470950
                                            Victor     49143
 
Also found this in the download section 
 

P15 D24 rear axle info

 
I was originally supplied with the larger seal by Rockauto but my axle, which I assume is the original one, takes the smaller seal.
Has anyone else come across this when replacing inner axle seals on a P15?

 

The other thing with the second pic out the parts book is that it doesn't list cars built in L.A., which mine car was, only Detroit and Evansville.

I'm assuming they used the same rear axle for all?

 

While I'm at it here are the details for the outer grease seal I found

 

Original Mopar no.   859164    2.44"   Outer Diameter

                                                1.375" Inner Diameter

                                                0.25"   Width

 

 

Cross references with           National     6241s

                                             Skf             13797

                                             Victor         49209

 

I got most of the cross reference info from this Timken site

 

http://www.timken.co.uk/en-us/products/Documents/Timken_Seal_Interchange_and_Cross_Reference_Guide.pdf 

 

It is already in the links section under Timken Catalogs

 

I'll update when the new seals arrive and get fitted.

 

Regards ...........Simon.

Edited by 61farnham
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  • 1 month later...

Hi all, 

 

Just updating this thread,the new seals arrived and my axles back together. 

 

I guess the lesson I learned was not to trust suppliers and pull the parts first to see what you need before ordering.

 

regards to all ............... Simon.

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  • 3 years later...

I am having the exact same problem. parts from rock auto and any other parts store i can find give me the same part that is too big (2.69).  i have a '46 plymouth deluxe (p15).  where were you able to find the parts for our which was the correct number to look for?  I saw your last post saying you updated the thread for new seals.. but i am not sure i found the right information?  any chance you could dumb it down for me?

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Hi GiraffeDan, 

 

The seals i used for my rear axle were as follows -

 

Inner - National 470950

 2.44"   Outer Diameter
 1.375"  Inner Diameter
  0.5"      Width
 

Outer - National 6241s

 

I never did find out if the axle in my car was the original one or not but the seals listed above fitted it and are still good so happy days.

 

Would recommend pulling the old seals first to get the part no. off them before ordering new ones if this is practicable. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards........ Simon.

 

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