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Starters


Don Jordan

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I don't know why my questions always sound so remedial but please believe me when I tell you I am serious asking this dumb question:

I have 2 P 15s. A 47 2 door sedan and a 48 4 door sedan. With a very little choke the 47 starts right up. Runs like an dream. The 48 labors to start. The motor turns over so slowly it just won't catch. I've done all the auto shop 101 stuff. New battery and cables, voltage regulator. A friend told me it could be the started. Is that possible? Wouldn't the starter just get old and brush off to Buffalo? It works though it struggles. Would having it rebuilt end all the problems? I've been parking it down hill to avoid some of the problem. When it warms up it starts faster (but it doesn't turn any faster)

I would appreciate any sincere comments you can offer. Save the snide caustic stuff for later.

Thanks guys I'm in your debt,

d-

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Yes it is possible for the starter to get progressively worse as you describe. The bushings and shims wear and the internals get dirty and don't pass electricity very well. A rebuilder should address these problems and get your starter working like new again.

Rob

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Don, have you thought of swapping the starters to see whether that makes any difference...........if so then I'd be taking the starter to the sparky for a rebuild.........if no difference, ie, the slow turnover is still slow then its obviously not the starter and vice versa............dunno if this helps...............andyd 

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Yes, a worn starter can do that.  A good starter with too light of cables can do that as well.  What cable size do you have on it?  Are they both the same size?  A heavy gauge and a light gauge cable is only half right.  The common 4 gauge cables found on the box store racks are not heavy enough.

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I'm afraid I don't know what it means but the cables I put on are '0'. I also put a new grounding strap on. Judging from some of the comments I think I'll take it off this week end and have the starter guy look at it. He's been around many years and I have faith in his opinion. I will let you know what happens. Thank you for your input.

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I had the same problem with my 1948 Plymouth, I change to new cables (2 gauge of course), Selonoid, Starter. I charged the battery full made sure it was working. After 4 years and 2 batteries I gave in and paid for a Optima 6V battery from NAPA Auto parts. Guess what I have no more problems. The car starts right away. Even after driving it for about 30 to 40 minutes Starts right up. Before when I drove it for that long it would not start. It wanted to but sounded tired. The power that Optima gives is a lot more than the regular 6V. Try it. I know some people hate them but works for me. That is all that matters.  I also have a D24 Dodge, When I am not sure I take parts from it and to see if it works on the other car. This way I know what could be the problem. Helps me a lot, 

 

Good luck, 
LFT

Edited by LFT_QBA_1980
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I don't know why my questions always sound so remedial but please believe me when I tell you I am serious asking this dumb question:

I have 2 P 15s. A 47 2 door sedan and a 48 4 door sedan. With a very little choke the 47 starts right up. Runs like an dream. The 48 labors to start. The motor turns over so slowly it just won't catch. I've done all the auto shop 101 stuff. New battery and cables, voltage regulator. A friend told me it could be the started. Is that possible? Wouldn't the starter just get old and brush off to Buffalo? It works though it struggles. Would having it rebuilt end all the problems? I've been parking it down hill to avoid some of the problem. When it warms up it starts faster (but it doesn't turn any faster)

I would appreciate any sincere comments you can offer. Save the snide caustic stuff for later.

Thanks guys I'm in your debt,

d-

Are you running 6V or 12V.  I am running 6V still. 

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you could take the car to your starter guy & he could check current draw with starter in car. That would isolate your problem. from what i've heard about optima batteries , it sounds like the starter is dragging.

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P Adams:  quick question - while I understand the concept of 'current draw' & 'voltage drop' I'm not sure how to put it into practical play.  Where do I measure and what are the numbers?  Couldn't I just pull the starter and check out the brushes?  Is all this in the service manual?

 

thanks

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while the book does go into free run amperage and speed and stall amperage etc..unfortunately it does not go much into situations that that takes years to develop..degrading connection within terminals and wire crimp joints..this is the value of the voltage drop test...

 

just a quick way to divide the problem between supply, delivery and starter...

 

there is plenty to read on the internet that will explain this very easily and will prevent me or anyone else from having to retype everything.  I was just stating that if your actual problem is a voltage drop..it will be last found after hours of labor and dollars out your pocket for repaired not necessarily needed.  The read is well worth looking into...could save you money..at least it will not cost you to check this at home ....

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Don,

 

  A quick voltage drop lesson. You want to put your voltmeter on the first scale above your 6 volt system, (mine is 40 volts). Measure from the positive battery anode,(not the battery cable terminal) to the starter case (this is a positive ground system) and have someone crank the engine. If you see more than .5 volts, you have a problem. Next measure from the negative battery anode to the starter lug/stud where the cable mounts. again on the starter stud and not the cable terminal. Then have someone crank it and see what you get. Again less than .5 volts. Any corrosion or poor connection in the circuit between your meter leads will show up. I have also seen starters that had corrosion between them and the engine causing the high resistance in the circuit.

It's quick and as stated may save you some work and money.

 

Lon

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Lon you're a wonderful person. I already took the starter out of one car so I will perform all the tests on the other one before I switch the starters. It's such a beautiful day all I really wanted to do is go for a ride. First things first. thanks again.

d-

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My father was a mechanic (grease monkey) all his life and he was determined that I not learn anything about cars because he said it's a horrible way to make a living.  He died when I was 15 and I inherited his tools.  So I got kind of a late start working on cars.  Lots of mistakes along the way.  So while some of you guys assume anyone can do it - not everyone can.

 

That said I'm told there is no difference between the 47 and 48 but I'm all the time running across little annoying differences.

 

I took the starters out (against the advice of some) and took them to my starter guy.  He benched tested them and said they are good.  If you look at the pictures you will see that one is bigger than the other.  I'm not sure what that means.  I switched one of the starters into the car that was having problems - nothing.  Saturday a friend of mine is coming by and we are going to try to figure the current draw and voltage drop thing.  I'm sure it's something simple.  I took the car on a 1,000 mile road trip and it performed admirably.

 

can anyone ID the 2 starters?

 

thanks

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My father was a mechanic (grease monkey) all his life and he was determined that I not learn anything about cars because he said it's a horrible way to make a living.  He died when I was 15 and I inherited his tools.  So I got kind of a late start working on cars.  Lots of mistakes along the way.  So while some of you guys assume anyone can do it - not everyone can.

 

That said I'm told there is no difference between the 47 and 48 but I'm all the time running across little annoying differences.

 

I took the starters out (against the advice of some) and took them to my starter guy.  He benched tested them and said they are good.  If you look at the pictures you will see that one is bigger than the other.  I'm not sure what that means.  I switched one of the starters into the car that was having problems - nothing.  Saturday a friend of mine is coming by and we are going to try to figure the current draw and voltage drop thing.  I'm sure it's something simple.  I took the car on a 1,000 mile road trip and it performed admirably.

 

can anyone ID the 2 starters?

 

thanks

 

 

Don,

 

I've been a mechanic since '87 and have been a partner in my own shop for the last 15 years. I know how your dad felt about you being a mechanic. I would much rather my kids pick a different field, however I would teach them as much as I could about basic mechanics to help them throughout life. The skills are very useful in so many facets of life. And I am still learning new things every day. Mistakes are a part of learning. You learn the wrong way to do it, hahaha!  I think you can do this, no problem!

 

That said, I am subscribed. I'm very curious what you find.

Let's see. Things you've eliminated:

1). Battery

2). Cables

3). Starter

4). Running out of parts...

 

A question. I apologize, but my car was purchased in many many pieces, so I can't go look. Where does the positive cable ground to on the car? Engine block? Chassis? You can "test" for  bad ground cable with a good sized set of jumper cables. Just take one of the jumper cables and attach it to the ground terminal at the battery and attach the other end to the starter case or mounting bolt.

 

Looking forward to your test results.

Lon

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Battery - new

cables - new (0)

Starter - rebuilt

 

Everything had been working fine - it sat dormant throughout the winter.  It just started cranking slower and slower until it wouldn't start.  I have to agree with the others in that I fear it is an electrical problem within the car and not the starter at all.  I switched it with the car that runs - no help.  I've got the battery on the charger now and will try again tomorrow.

 

I know it's something silly.  I was having trouble with  my other car.  It would not start.  I went over everything I could think of.  Finally I took the dist out and there was a short in the condenser wire.  It was so small it was hard to see.  Once fixed the car ran like a dream.  I know it's something small because the car does run once you get it started.  (sounds like something on a T shirt) (or: it was running perfect when I shut it off).

 

Lon - I never really wanted to be a mechanic - but back in the 50s & 60s it was very cool to at least KNOW about cars.  All the songs about cars Little Duce Coup, 409, (naturally I can't think of any right now.  But I know what a 283, 289, 326, 454 etc. is.  Ask a kid today what those numbers mean - most won't know.  I just wanted the knowledge (and a little bonding time with my father).  It seems I got neither.

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If you want to eliminate the starter positively, put it in the car that does run, see what it does there.

Does it turn the engine over freely with the plugs out? The starter may be fine and you have too much drag in the engine itself.

Edited by Dave72dt
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Your starter relay may be bad.  The contacts (essentially a large washer and two square-head bolts that it hits when you use the starter button) may be pitted and not allowing enough current to flow.   Most starter relays are riveted together but if you're ambitious you can grind off the rivets and reassemble later with nuts and bolts.  When the relay is apart, flip the washer over so the clean side hits the bolts, and you can also rotate the bolts (they protrude through the relay casing and are the studs you connect your cables to) so a fresh side contacts the washer when it hits.

Edited by JerseyHarold
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I'm going to cop to this for 3 good reasons 1) this thread is so far down the list everyone has lost interest 2) I doubt that I will ever see any of you guys so I don't risk the chance of getting busted for being so stupid. 3) I hope I will be forgiven for my indiscretion because I am older than the car.

One of the problems having 2 cars is sometimes you do something to one and think it was the other. I complained that my starter was turning too slow to start the car. I said I had put 0 battery cables on it. I lied. They were 4. I hope this will help someone as stupid as me. I ordered a set of 0 battery cables, put them on, pushed the button and almost fell out of my seat. It was like someone changed the car over to 24v. That puppy cranked so fast an started so quick I almost didn't get my finger off the button.

All the grief I put myself through changing starters, trying to figure out about power surges and current drops and it was the silly battery cables all along.

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I guess my creditability is shot here. I guess that's how we learn. It was worth it just to hear it fire up. Now that the weather is nice I'm going for a ride.

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I'm going to cop to this for 3 good reasons 1) this thread is so far down the list everyone has lost interest 2) I doubt that I will ever see any of you guys so I don't risk the chance of getting busted for being so stupid. 3) I hope I will be forgiven for my indiscretion because I am older than the car.

One of the problems having 2 cars is sometimes you do something to one and think it was the other. I complained that my starter was turning too slow to start the car. I said I had put 0 battery cables on it. I lied. They were 4. I hope this will help someone as stupid as me. I ordered a set of 0 battery cables, put them on, pushed the button and almost fell out of my seat. It was like someone changed the car over to 24v. That puppy cranked so fast an started so quick I almost didn't get my finger off the button.

All the grief I put myself through changing starters, trying to figure out about power surges and current drops and it was the silly battery cables all along.

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I guess my creditability is shot here. I guess that's how we learn. It was worth it just to hear it fire up. Now that the weather is nice I'm going for a ride.

I am happy to hear that all is well.  It has been said so many times here by myself and many others...the forum needs all the facts when trying to aide someone with a problem.  We are not able to be on site to inspect or take a measurement and must rely on the owner to supply correct data and make tests and report finding.  Our help is only as good as the supplied answers and data supplied to us.  The too small a cable would have been a hellacious voltage drop

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