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1951 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe Coupe Spitfire (in need of knowledge)


Vermonter

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Hello, all.

 

This is my first post on this forum. I joined because I was lucky enough to obtain a free 1951 Windsor and I would like to get it running within the next year.

 

I apologize in advance if this isn't the place for this an introduction. I didn't see an introduction forum.

 

Here's a back story on how I got my hands on this car:

About 5 months ago I saw this car on Craigslist for $1600, listed about 3 miles away from my apartment. The ad stated he was moving out of state and the car had to go. I called the guy and set up a time to go see it.

When I got to his place, he wasn't home. This was a good chance to get the tire-kicking out of the way and really eye-ball it without offending anyone. I looked it over thoroughly, and I wasn't too impressed. It's not a 'special' car, It was in rough shape, and I wasn't really invested in it emotionally. However, by the time the guy showed up, I had developed a strange love for the car. Every angle of it screamed potential and drew me in. I studied it closer.

At this point, I'm basically sold on the car if I can manage to work out a deal for a slightly better price.

He explains what he believes to be the issue with it not running. He also says he has a collection of parts for the car. I asked him what he meant by "parts"... so he shows me his garage. He has almost every NOS part available to completely re-chrome the car, fix any insignificant broken piece, and new rubbers. So now he's reeling me in. He told me the parts do not go with the car, but he can work out a deal with me. I had to step back. I told him that I will give it some serious thought and I would contact him at some point to discuss it more. I never mentioned working out a price. I was starting to think $1600 was fair.

A couple weeks pass, and the responsible part of me has blocked the car out of my mind. I had moved on. Out of the blue, he calls me and says "I've had a couple people look over the car and they all try to talk me down to a ridiculous price or just kick the tires and leave. I have a new deal for you". He tells me he wants me to come help him tear into the engine and see if we can get it running. His deal to me was "if we get it running, you can have the car and all the parts I've collected for the original asking price" or "if we can't get it running, you can have the car for $1000". I told him I wasn't ready to shake hands on it, but he lived close enough and I just wanted to get my hands dirty on a flathead because if anything, It gives me something to do on a friday night.

Fast forward, We are digging in to the engine, suspecting a broken timing chain. He had all new parts ready to go. We get a couple hours in to the job, and I had made a couple parts and tool runs. By the time we get done, we realize there's nothing wrong with the timing chain. He steps back, scratches his head and says "well back to square one". He makes a couple comments suggesting he might just trade the car for something to a neighbor or keep it for whatever reason. At this point I had really written this car off. I just put in a bunch of hours and bloody knuckles into this car and now he wants to trade it to his neighbor? I left without making a scene, and went on about life. Maybe I misunderstood what he said, I don't know.

About 2 months go by, I'm not even thinking about this car anymore. I'm in the passenger seat of my wifes car and I get a call from the guy. He asks me if I am still interested in the car and he has a new deal for me. I wasn't excited to hear it, and any money I had to spend is now gone AND christmas was a couple weeks away. I let him talk. He says "I want to give you the car. Your'e the only guy that I've dealt with that's been decent, shown genuine interest, and hasn't tried to talk the car down. I want you to have it". I didn't know what to say other than thank you. He said the only thing he can't do is give me the collection of parts. I was fine with that. Free rat rod. I was blown away. He could've accepted any low ball offer from anyone else, but he didn't. He would rather give it away to someone who genuinely wanted it than sell it for a low ball price. He did state "I can't take it with me and I can probably make my money back just by selling the parts". Good enough. I got a truck and trailer and got to his place by the end of the week. He helped me load it, gave me every single piece the car needs to become 100%, including every tiny replacement part that was missing down to the turn signal lever. He even gave me OG White walls, and a replacement front fender even though the one it replaces isn't that bad.

So now I'm sitting on a Flathead six 1951 Chrsyler Windsor Deluxe Coupe that does not run.

 

I came here because I was searching other forums for information and kept being guided here. It made sense, ratrod forums are fun, but I needed specific help from a community of people who deal specifically with this type of engine.

 

Here is everything I know about the engine and where I am with it: (where mentioned, "previous owner" will be "P.O.")

 

1) The distributor was not turning with the engine. P.O. thought it was a bad distributor so he replaced it. Same issue, no movement.

 

2) P.O. thought it may be the timing chain. Checked, Timing chain is perfect and both gears cam and crank turn.

 

3) Car turns over just fine, won't fire. (no spark/no movement in distributor.)

 

4) Car was being driven when it stopped running about 2 years ago. Stopped dead in traffic on throttle.

 

5) I have no idea if the P.O. timed anything after replacing the distributor or if that has anything to do with it.

 

6) The engine is the original Spitfire Flathead six with fluiddrive transmission.

 

I am trying to be as thorough as I can be, But I am a 29y/o who, up until recently, has never had my hands on anything other than daily driven Hondas and a few other Toyotas/Subarus. My knowledge is limited, especially on vehicles that pre-date myself by a few decades, but I've been handed a very exciting project and I owe it to the P.O. to get the car running. The timing couldn't have been worse with finances and my Honeymoon plans already being laid out for this coming summer.

It has always been my dream to own a ratrod. I think this car is a perfect place to start. It has all the original parts and real age. I don't intend on modifying anything on this car, and I wan't to keep it as original as I can, only replacing as needed, with NOS or decent used parts. You will see in the pictures that there is a bit of red spray paint on the rear of the car, I want to remove that so that car is uniform. The only modifying I MIGHT do is to lower the car a tad. Not too much to scrape everywhere, but just enough to get a bit more of an aggressive look. We will see.

 

I am open to any comments, guidance, advice or knowledge. I'd like to get some conversation going as to where to start to get it running. If I can get the car to the point where it runs smooth, I will hopefully get the engine out and give it a thorough rebuild so I can reliably drive it to shows. I will keep this thread alive as progress is made, but It's currently winter in the northeast, so progress pics probably won't make it on here until late spring. Until then, here are some pictures of what I am working with:

 

rat2_zpsbafef477.jpg

 

rat_zps18ec06bf.jpg

 

rat3_zps9cc5e2a9.jpg

 

Thanks for looking.

Edited by Vermonter
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Only one of your photos would open. You said the distributor was swapped out with another. Suggest you measure the shaft length of the distributor as you may have a distributor from a Dodge or Plymouth that is shorter. See the photos below. You need one 5 1/2" long not 5 1/4"

 

longblock512.jpg

 

fromjohn.jpg

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" The distributor was not turning with the engine. P.O. thought it was a bad distributor so he replaced it. Same issue, no movement."

Until you correct this, nothing is going to happen.  Find out why the distributor doesn't turn, and correct it.  Don is probably right, again, but there could be other reasons why its not turning, but they are not very likely.

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Congratulations.....and it's a 2 door! I believe everyone should do as they please with their car......except "rat rod" it. You have a nice start for an original car, a kustom...mild or wild, or just lowered for a stance to your liking. I like mine low & somewhat original looking. Good luck, use the "search" function, & ask away!

 

*EDIT-looks like you had a '67 Squareback....I have a soft spot for them, my 1st car was a Squareback (in 1980). I wouldn't mind if you posted a pic or 2 in this thread, even though it's OT....it's YOUR thread.

Edited by deathbound
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" The distributor was not turning with the engine. P.O. thought it was a bad distributor so he replaced it. Same issue, no movement."

Until you correct this, nothing is going to happen.  Find out why the distributor doesn't turn, and correct it.  Don is probably right, again, but there could be other reasons why its not turning, but they are not very likely.

 

Captain obvious- (kidding!)

that's exactly what I am trying to do. Figure out why it isn't turning. I literally just got this car unloaded off the trailer and my first step was to come here.

I am assuming that there are at very least two reasons why it wouldnt be turning. one being that the first distributor splines stripped, stopping the car, and was replaced with the wrong distributor. Ther other theory that I can think of is that the drive gear on the camshaft is stripped and won't turn the distributor shaft no matter how many distributors I replace. Of course, those are guesses, and again, I have no knowledge of these cars, so I am not concluding either of those theories. My hopes are that I can eliminate a lot of guess work by turning to the pros. (you guys!).

 

Thanks for that bit of info, Don. I will look into that as soon as possible.

I trust anyone named Don haha. My landlord, my neighbor, my grandfather, my dads middle name...all Don's and all good people haha

 

As mush as the P.O. knew about this car and as thorough as he was about the parts he bought for it, I would hate to think he did something as silly as replace using the wrong distributor! It is very likely, and wouldn't that be someting if that's all it is?

 

Thank you guys sincerely for chiming in.

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Congratulations.....and it's a 2 door! I believe everyone should do as they please with their car......except "rat rod" it. You have a nice start for an original car, a kustom...mild or wild, or just lowered for a stance to your liking. I like mine low & somewhat original looking. Good luck, use the "search" function, & ask away!

 

*EDIT-looks like you had a '67 Squareback....I have a soft spot for them, my 1st car was a Squareback (in 1980). I wouldn't mind if you posted a pic or 2 in this thread, even though it's OT....it's YOUR thread.

Yeah, I'm pretty stoked that it's a two door. The lines on this car...man I wish they still made them this way.

I will post a picture or two of my squareback. I had two, but my first one didnt make it out of the driveway. I was 18 at the time... dumb kid. Still am.

I appreciate your hate for ratrods, it's not for everyone. I do beleive their is a time and place for them. I look at a ratrod as an art peice, like anything else, you have to appreciate that art to appreciate the piece. I don't like modern dance, but it does'nt mean it isn't for everyone. I don't beleive in destroying a perfectly good car to make a ratrod, but if you have a car you don't want to give up, it's pretty burnt, and you don't have the time or money to fully do what's right, and you have the mod bug, then by all means its rat rod time. In my case, I love rust. It's imperfect and society does'nt understand it, it's got a danger factor, it's excitement. This car, to me (in my hands) will be an unmodded ratrod. I don't have the time or money to fix it up other than just getting it running. I want to appreciate it in it's rusty glory, soaring down the highway and scaring the white out of the sheep. If I had the money, you bet your bottom dollar that car would be a perfect candidate for a ground-up rebuild.

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Flathead distibutors are a little different. The cam gear drives the oil pump and the dist is driven off the pump. You can see in Don's photo what they look like. I would say if the dist isn't turning something happened to either the oil pump or the cam.

 

As for the rat rod I can appreciate one like yours where you just got it going as is. Its the ones with tractor parts and all sorta of crazy junk welded here and there that don't do anything for me.

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For 'Deathbound'-

 

378313_10151133172211416_1384374947_n_zp

 

1023111738_zps12ecc093.jpg

 

384708_546359440714_599118201_n.jpg

 

428880_4476794316593_1826555799_n.jpg

 

By the way, did all of my previous pictures upload properly? I am seeing them on my end.

Edited by Vermonter
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Flathead distibutors are a little different. The cam gear drives the oil pump and the dist is driven off the pump. You can see in Don's photo what they look like. I would say if the dist isn't turning something happened to either the oil pump or the cam.

 

As for the rat rod I can appreciate one like yours where you just got it going as is. Its the ones with tractor parts and all sorta of crazy junk welded here and there that don't do anything for me.

 

Ah see that's my confusion right there. All of the cutaway photos i've seen make it look like there is a drivegear on the camshaft that drives the distributer. Maybe google was giving me results for a different engine?

Thank you kindly!

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For 'Deathbound'-

 

414615_610014509560_1270110612_o_zps8314

 

1009487_10151659555967737_1338823516_o_z

 

By the way, did all of my previous pictures upload properly? I am seeing them on my end.

 

Yep, all uploaded fine...VERY NICE....love the '69's & earlier, even though both of mine were 70's. Cal Style (at least that's what we called 'em), both were just as low as yours (some habits never die), one actually got finished...paint, interior, 1835cc, dual carbs, etc. Back on topic, I'll be following your progress.

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Definitely has an interesting roof line, never seen one before.

Cam drives the oil pump, oil pump has a slot in the end that the tang on the end of distributor fits into. (See Don's distributor pic) First thing I would check is making sure the tang is set in the oil pump. If you can freely spin the distributor rotor it's not set.  Report back what you find.

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Definitely has an interesting roof line, never seen one before.

Cam drives the oil pump, oil pump has a slot in the end that the tang on the end of distributor fits into. (See Don's distributor pic) First thing I would check is making sure the tang is set in the oil pump. If you can freely spin the distributor rotor it's not set.  Report back what you find.

 

Thanks! I will be checking that first chance I get (probably Thursday or Friday) if not next week. I think he said he removed the oil pump since I last checked out the car... It might be sitting in a box in the car, but I will check that and see if it looks damaged. I will also be checking the Distributer shaft length.

 

Thanks again, this forum is everything I hoped it would be

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Yep, all uploaded fine...VERY NICE....love the '69's & earlier, even though both of mine were 70's. Cal Style (at least that's what we called 'em), both were just as low as yours (some habits never die), one actually got finished...paint, interior, 1835cc, dual carbs, etc. Back on topic, I'll be following your progress.

 

'67 was the best year if you ask me. Had all the best features of the '69 and all the best features of the pre-'67 all in one car, plus the first year of fuel injection (mine was dual carb). '67 is highly saught after for type-3 VW's. The 1967 VW type-3 was the first production car to have electronic fuel injection as a standard feature. I loved it, but I tore into it in hopes of using it for our wedding and didn;t finish it in time after dumping loads of money into it so I was very discouraged. It sat in the yard for a few weeks and I just stopped caring for it. Someone offered me a price I couldn't refuse, and now a very worthy owner has it. Good things to come.

I doubt the spitfire will be as easy to remove as that 1600cc aircooled... We could swap engines in literally an hour.

 

off topic... sorry

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Also if anyone know where I can get a bullseye headlight for less than $150, let me know. The car has one and an aftermarket headlight. no bueno

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'67 was the best year if you ask me. Had all the best features of the '69 and all the best features of the pre-'67 all in one car, plus the first year of fuel injection (mine was dual carb). '67 is highly saught after for type-3 VW's. The 1967 VW type-3 was the first production car to have electronic fuel injection as a standard feature. I loved it, but I tore into it in hopes of using it for our wedding and didn;t finish it in time after dumping loads of money into it so I was very discouraged. It sat in the yard for a few weeks and I just stopped caring for it. Someone offered me a price I couldn't refuse, and now a very worthy owner has it. Good things to come.

I doubt the spitfire will be as easy to remove as that 1600cc aircooled... We could swap engines in literally an hour.

 

off topic... sorry

 

Yep, as far as '67....1st year for 12V for all VW's I think & I prefer the smaller front marker lights & rear tail lights of pre '70. If you don't mind, here are 3 pics (sorry for the poor quality-pics of pics) of mine (1st 2 finished just before I sold it & 1 prior to being finished-around 1983-hence the awful rattle can primer/stripes)....if it's a problem or too OT, I will delete.....

 

 

post-3672-0-49026000-1419912177_thumb.jpg

post-3672-0-31844100-1419912190_thumb.jpg

post-3672-0-90333500-1419912200_thumb.jpg

Edited by deathbound
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My thread, my rules. I say it stays! haha

 

I love it

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welcome Mr Vermonter.......what you have is a two seat coupe as opposed to a two door sedan.  If they did not come with the car,

you should shop eBay and purchase both a Chrysler shop/repair manual and a parts manual for your car, either original or reprint.

Those tell you a lot of things ... but not totally everything.  Don Coatney knows about these engines as he did an extensive

rebuild on his DeSoto six, which is pretty much the same as yours.  Your engine is 25 inches long, whereas those in Plymouth

and Dodge cars are 23 inches long.  Fluid drive transmission probably.....basically a fluid clutch system.     15" wheels with left

hand lug nuts/bolts on left and right hand on the right side.  6 volt electrical system with positive battery ground.  

 

52 Chrysler Windsor two door sedan ( different from a coupe}:

 

6982_2692.jpg

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Sweet Oden's Raven, I feel like a fool!!

 

My car is a 1951 !!

 

I didn't realize I had been typing '52, not sure why that number was in my head, I have known all long it's a 1951. I saw that picture you posted, saw that the front was different, and immediately knew I messed up.

 

I am going to see if I can edit this topic title.. 

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welcome Mr Vermonter.......what you have is a two seat coupe as opposed to a two door sedan.  If they did not come with the car,

you should shop eBay and purchase both a Chrysler shop/repair manual and a parts manual for your car, either original or reprint.

Those tell you a lot of things ... but not totally everything.  Don Coatney knows about these engines as he did an extensive

rebuild on his DeSoto six, which is pretty much the same as yours.  Your engine is 25 inches long, whereas those in Plymouth

and Dodge cars are 23 inches long.  Fluid drive transmission probably.....basically a fluid clutch system.     15" wheels with left

hand lug nuts/bolts on left and right hand on the right side.  6 volt electrical system with positive battery ground.  

 

52 Chrysler Windsor two door sedan ( different from a coupe}:

 

6982_2692.jpg

The above car is a 1953 Chhrysler Windsor club coupe. The one piece windshield started in 1953.

1951-52 Chryslers all have two piece windshields and look the same body wise with very minor trim differences... Like minor tail light differences ect.

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The OP's 1951 chrysler club coupe car can quickly be identified as a 1951 model by the 1950- 1951 tail light lens and the rectangular clear back up lamps.

Bob

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yes, it is most definitely a 51. I have no idea why 52 stuck in my head when composing this thread. just a glitch in my brain i guess.

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the picture posted by dodgeb4ya is a 1954 Chrysler Windsor deluxe. looks very similar to a 53, but from the angle of the picture the grille is very different. the 54 is all stainless while the 53 still used pot metal. that car has wire wheel covers. very few windsors came with real wire wheels. very different from the 51/52 models, but still not stylish enough for the buying public at the time to be a big seller.   capt den

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You are so right!!!

 I have one (54 windsor 4 door) in front of my shop I just parted out too! :confused:

post-302-0-76041100-1419959371_thumb.jpg

post-302-0-07689800-1419959389_thumb.jpg

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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