Dual carb intake - any interest

[timkingsbury]

Howdy  Folks -

 

As some may know my father Eddy Kingsbury and George Asche along with myself and a buddy developed a triple carb intake

for the Canadian 25 1/2"  big block flatheads.  We used the 50's triple that Eddy  Edmunds produced and dramatically improved the flow of the intake as well as made a number of changes to the design.

 

We did so not so much for commerical purposes but for use on our rear engine dragster and a couple of personal projects.

 

I put the setup on my 1949 plymouth business coupe (sporting a modified 265 ci motor) and am currently getting ready to put it on a 1956 Fargo pickup.

 

If you want to see it in action on my car or the dragster I have uploaded a view video's on youtube

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8y7yB5J7YNWI2Rnnvn8rig

 

But the reason for my post is to gauge if there is interest in making a dual carb setup that could be used on not only cars, but trucks and older cars.  The big difference as I am sure you guys know is the tabs on the outside of the intake for mounting linkage. That is something the edmunds, offy or other intakes dont have.

 

It would be for the USA small block engines. We bascially already have all the research and testing done when we created our triple for the big block.  We have had a number of car guys who are unhappy with the performance of the offy's (lots of rev but looses torque over stock) and who are seeing huge prices for vintage edmunds intakes ask us to consider making a dual carb setup.

 

We also know with lots of our triples out there to confirm our triple is outperforming the super rare edmunds triple, so we are confident a dual carb setup would outperform any similar intake ever produced. 

 

Our big advantage is not only is there better flow testing instrumentation available today, but foam core casting just allows for a product that could not have been made in the 40's-60's when all of the dual carb intakes were designed.

 

Right now it is looking like an AoK dual carb intake,  machined, with the truck linkage tab(s) drilled and tapped are likely going to

retail for $400-$425

 

Is there any interest from the flathead truck world ?

 

Thanks for your time and any input is appreciated

 

Tim  Kingbury and George Asche

 

[Brent B3B]

I am interested but very uneducated, I am not a "gear head" so I am not understanding the advantage or additional modifications needed ie. exhaust, fuel pumps, rear diff , transmission etc.

to take full advantage. I just have a "stock" 218, transmission and 4:10

Sorry for the ignorance, this is all new to me

[NiftyFifty]

I think the missing service is for the 25" Canadian blocks, another dual for the 23" is redundant in my mind, there are a lot of happy Offenhauser customers too from what I've read

[timkingsbury]

I am interested but very uneducated, I am not a "gear head" so I am not understanding the advantage or additional modifications needed ie. exhaust, fuel pumps, rear diff , transmission etc.

to take full advantage. I just have a "stock" 218, transmission and 4:10

Sorry for the ignorance, this is all new to me

 

Your get a better flow, and you can put more cfm of carbs on the engine. You can just swap the intake with stock and leave it at that, although the first thing I would do is go to dual exhaust.  Either headers or split you stock exhaust. There are lots of options out there.  My partner in crime George Asche can take you stock exhaust and split it into real dual exhaust or headers for about $150.

 

Dual intake and dual exhaust with give you more Horsepower and a better torque curve over stock. You do not need to change fuel pumps, or anything else. Depending on what vehicle you have, if you want, whether you change intake or exhaust or not, there are potentially rear end and transmission options to

give you more highway speed.  But that may or may not be of interest.

[timkingsbury]

I think the missing service is for the 25" Canadian blocks, another dual for the 23" is redundant in my mind, there are a lot of happy Offenhauser customers too from what I've read

 

We have quite a few people buying our dual carb intake made from the factory intake for the 25 1/2" block engines, and definately have had great reception for our triple carb intake for the big block,  but have not had a large amount of people asking for the dual carb intake for the big block ... so far !

 

On the dual carb for the small block, actually we hear from a lot of people that they are not happy with the Offenhauser. It has increased Rev but completely looses its torque curve.  Its too close to the block and too low. The edmunds ones work well, but theystopped making them close to 50 years ago now, and the prices on the secondary market has really risen.

 

And all of those options do not work for trucks or older cars as here is no place for the linkage that bolts to a stock intake.  I will attach a picture of a truck intake and you will see the tabs on the intake to mount the linkage to.  Those dont exist on any of the dual carb intakes that we are aware of.

 

Tim

[Brent B3B]

Thanks for the explanation Tim, count me as interested

[Phntm48]

Definitely interested!

[50plymouth]

I dont need one for a truck, but I would be interested in one for my 230 ci motor in my 1950 plymouth !  Im in at that price range. Above that, I would likely be interested but I would have to think about it. I had an offy on the car.  A couple of weeks later removed it.  Lots of rpm but it lost too much torque as you describe.  Some of my buddies used spacers to get carbs up but it was not a great solution. Ive looked for an edmunds for quite a while, but they are pretty expensive from what I have seen. While you have linkage available for them ? Rebuilding an engine, no problem but I hate trying to make linkage for stuff.  It just isnt something I like to do.

[HanksB3B]

I'm all for anyone that has a hand in developing any aftermarket product for our Mopars. More power to you and our Flatheads as well ! Where you gunna get more DTE-1's though that is the question.

 

Thanks.

 

hank 

[timkingsbury]

I dont need one for a truck, but I would be interested in one for my 230 ci motor in my 1950 plymouth !  Im in at that price range. Above that, I would likely be interested but I would have to think about it. I had an offy on the car.  A couple of weeks later removed it.  Lots of rpm but it lost too much torque as you describe.  Some of my buddies used spacers to get carbs up but it was not a great solution. Ive looked for an edmunds for quite a while, but they are pretty expensive from what I have seen. While you have linkage available for them ? Rebuilding an engine, no problem but I hate trying to make linkage for stuff.  It just isnt something I like to do.

 

Thanks for your note.  Yes we will definately have stainless steel linkage available for them  I dont have any good pictures handy of the linkage we (George Asche) has made for various intakes and applications.  It is very nice high quality stuff.  Guessing, it will be in the $125 -  $140 range.   But we will definately have linkage available.

[timkingsbury]

I'm all for anyone that has a hand in developing any aftermarket product for our Mopars. More power to you and our Flatheads as well ! Where you gunna get more DTE-1's though that is the question.

 

Thanks.

 

hank 

 

Thanks for the compliment.  Well my Dad when he was alive and George Asche have been at this since the late 40's - early 50's.  Heavily into stock cars, drag racing and custom doing a lot of flathead stuff. George continues to make multi carb intakes, dual exhaust and headers from stock manifolds and incredible linkage.

 

On the DTE - 1's... lol.. luckily there are lots of different carter ball and ball carbs we can use, but they are likely everything getting harder to find.   It is only 4 or 35years ago I could go to swap meets and pickup 10-20 of them for $5 each.   Now If your see 2 or 3 at a swap meet its a lot and I shake my head on what they want for them.

 

But just so you have them..  here is my cheat sheet on carbs,  complete with throttle bore and venturi sizes !

 

Tim

 

Dodge

 

1937 – 1940 truck   - etr1r (2 hole base)

 

1940 – 1948 cabover is a 6c1, 6c2, 6d1, 6dir, 6e1, 6f1, 6g1, 6m1 (updraft carb)

 

1941, 42, 46, 47 truck  etr1r, b6s1, dta2, dtb1-dtb1r, dtb2-dtb2r, dtb3-dtb3r, etp2, etr1-etr1r

 

1942 – 1949 trucks – model dtc1 (1 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) or

                             model ett1 (1 11/16 bore and 1 11/32 venturi)

 

* 1946-1947 carbs with velocity governors – eyb1, eyb4, eyc1, eyc3, et1, et2, et4, e7b1, e7c1, e7f1, e7s1

 

* 1950-1954 ½ and ¾ ton and 1952 1 ton – dte1 and dte2 (1 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi)

 

* 1950 – 1956 1 ½ - 3 ton – e7t1 and e7t2 (1 11/16 throttle bore 1 11/32 venturi)

 

1950-1954 cabover is 6n1 and 6n2 (updraft)

 

** 1952 2 ¾ - 4ton with dual carbureters – e7u1 and e7u2  1 11/16 throttle bore amd 1 11/32 venturi)

 

* Dodge d46 and d47 – 1953  - model d6h2 1 – 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi

                                                  * Same thing but with overdrive – model d6u1 (same bore and venturi)

 

 

** 1953-1956 2 ½ ton truck with 2 carbs – model e9k1 and 39y1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi)

    (this is the 265 ci motor carbs)

 

*1953-1955 2 ¾ ton – 3 ½ ton or 1953-56 4 ton – model e9g1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi)

  (this was the 331-377-413 big block motor with dual carbs)

 

* 1953-1955 1 and 1 ½ ton truck (route van) e9h1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi)

   (this is the 331-377-413 big block – single carb)

 

* 1954 d51 and d52 – e9n1 or e9t1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi)

[DJ194950]

What do you think about casting the linkage mounts (both types or was there 3?) with maybe a V type dimple where to drill holes if needed by end user?

 

They can drill/tap as needed or have done for them (extra charge) for those wanting a Bolt on purchase?  Industrious types on this forum can remove those not wanted for looks if they chose to??

 

Love the idea, wish my pocket.....

 

Glad to see the Big interest!

 

DJ

[timkingsbury]

What do you think about casting the linkage mounts (both types or was there 3?) with maybe a V type dimple where to drill holes if needed by end user?

 

They can drill/tap as needed or have done for them (extra charge) for those wanting a Bolt on purchase?  Industrious types on this forum can remove those not wanted for looks if they chose to??

 

Love the idea, wish my pocket.....

 

Glad to see the Big interest!

 

DJ

That is not a bad idea. There are  3 different car ones and 2 different truck ones, but they can all be accomidated with custom linkage with tab holes.  I will attach the three versions of edmunds.  With linkage bar on the inside, on the outside and none.  From Offy, to Ellis, to tatterfield, etc dont have anything for any linkage rods.  We have actually made stainless  tabs that go under carbs that allow you to

mount linkage in or out as well.

 

But we could consider putting tabs, or dimples as you call them on both the inside and outside.  They only need tapped as the linkage would run through them.   Unless you mean the  the truck  dimples or nubs.  I will attach a picture of that manifold.  For most of the car guys they dont need them, and a lot would grind them off.   That is why my question to the truck guys.  We just were not sure if there is a market on the truck side.   

 

Its become very clear there is a market on the car side.

 

Tim

[Jeff Balazs]

I'm all for anyone that has a hand in developing any aftermarket product for our Mopars. More power to you and our Flatheads as well ! Where you gunna get more DTE-1's though that is the question.

 

Thanks.

 

hank 

Good point Hank. I have been looking for a spare B & B carb for some time now .....with no luck. I think I would prefer a 2BBl manifold with a pattern that would take a more readily available (and perhaps tunable) carb. I have not seen where anybody has fitted side drafts to one of these engines but I really have enjoyed the cars I have had with DCOE Webers on them. They are an amazing piece of engineering and sound wonderful when you punch the throttle.

 

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Too many possibilities+ too many $$$.

 

I meant to put the throttle mounting linkage blocks (for trucks) and have  inward dimples (as i call them) for drilling/taping centers as required.

 

Less models = less$$. Follow this forum and that always matters to most, But not all!!

 

Tks. for listening to us all!

 

DJ

[timkingsbury]

I definately need one for my 1950 plymouth.  I have built up a 230 for it.  Will you have linkage available for this intake for carter ball and ball carbs ?

If so how much money ?  When  do you think they will be available? Im new to the forum. A buddy of mine just called me this morning to tell me about the

new intake.  I was definately blown away with your video postings. I paused the video and had a good look at the setup on your car. That is incredible. Where did you get that dual pulley I see on the water pump ? Where did you get that polished alternator ? Sorry for all the dumb questions but I looked around that engine compartment on the video and I think I hurt my jaw as it hit the floor. Last question, what is the stuff that looks like wiring going to one of the carbs ?

 

Thanks for your time. I have tried an offy and it was not successful. I lost all the torque in my engine. Ive been trying to find a edmunds for some times, but to find the edmunds I want they are out of reach. On your list, I dont need the water jacket. I dont need the truck tabs although I think that would be a good idea. Where the linkage tabs are, heck you tell me. You guys know more than I do so whatever you have that works works for me. I like the serial number idea and any name will be cool.

 

Maybe AoK flatheads forever.  Yes I was listening to you video.

 

Thanks for making my day, week and year

 

 

Good point Hank. I have been looking for a spare B & B carb for some time now .....with no luck. I think I would prefer a 2BBl manifold with a pattern that would take a more readily available (and perhaps tunable) carb. I have not seen where anybody has fitted side drafts to one of these engines but I really have enjoyed the cars I have had with DCOE Webers on them. They are an amazing piece of engineering and sound wonderful when you punch the throttle.

 

Jeff

Well we can definately supply you with one. Completely rebuilt for $150 & shipping.  Edmunds did make a 2 x2 barrel intake.  It was a flop but I do see them from time to time on Ebay.  They have no tabs for truck linkage on them.  I can likely dig up pictures of where we tried side draft webers. There was more of a lag in throttle response than I would have liked.     In  any case,  your can buy adapters fairly inexpensive to bolt to a single barrel intake and then mounth a 2barrel carb on it.

 

I did a quick peek and saw this one on ebay. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/stromberg-etc-2-barrel-carb-to-1-barrel-manifold-adapter-rat-rod-new-/131360716690?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e95b57792&vxp=mtr

 

I have seen other ones although I just didnt see one tonight.

 

Now if you want to see throttle response.  Check out the carter ball and balls on my car  !

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8y7yB5J7YNWI2Rnnvn8rig

 

But in terms of developing a dual 2 barrel intake, it isnt in the cards for us.  I dont see a market there, and you can as I mentioned always use adapters to put a 2 barrel carb on it. In fact I likely have a picture were we put dual 4barrel carbs on an intake, although it really looked cooler than it performed.

[timkingsbury]

Too many possibilities+ too many $$$.

 

I meant to put the throttle mounting linkage blocks (for trucks) and have  inward dimples (as i call them) for drilling/taping centers as required.

 

Less models = less$$. Follow this forum and that always matters to most, But not all!!

 

Tks. for listening to us all!

 

DJ

Ok..  sorry, that was me being thick as a brick I guess.  Right now, the feedback we have been getting from the car guys is put the tabs on the outside as Edmunds

did in his last  version of the intake, even though traditionally I would have said - "car linkage on the inside (head side) and truck linkage on the outside".   But

thats not what I am hearing from the car guys.

 

I do understand what you mean.. On the truck side, so far we have heard

- there isnt a market as offey has it covered,

- the offey doesnt cut it (llooses torque) do a dual

- dont bother with a small block,  make a big block (25 1/2" dual carb unit)

- do a dual carb intake for 2 barrel carbs

-do a triple for the small block like your AoK triple for the big block

- do a dual, skip the water jacket

-do a copy of the 1952-56 factory dual carb/dual exhaust intake for the big block

 

But in the end, I am pleasantly surprised by the amount of feedback that has came in and very quickly.

 

We are definately as  I announced last night,  going to do a dual carb intake for the cars.   We have someone on it first thing tomorrow.

 

I would say the jury is still out as to whether we add the tabs for the  trucks.  The car guys dont want them although they are not

going to not buy one because they are there.   We dont have to make a decision on the tabs for likely another 2 or 3 weeks. so we will

see.

 

Finally, this forum both the car and the truck side definately is the majority of where we are gathering information and from that was the decision

to make it and will be to how it is made.  So we are definately listening to everyone.  Doesnt mean we can or would be interesting in

incorporating what everyone suggests, but it definately has a major influence that I can assure you.

 

Tim

[Jeff Balazs]

Tim;

Just so you understand I was not suggesting you do a 2 BBL manifold or anything to do with a side draft manifold. I was just wondering if you had experimented with any of this.

 

I do think what you are proposing is a good thing and should incorporate the tabs for the truck linkage. I feel certain there are probably more than a few truck owners that would ultimately decide to go in this direction.

 

Jeff

[timkingsbury]

Tim;

Just so you understand I was not suggesting you do a 2 BBL manifold or anything to do with a side draft manifold. I was just wondering if you had experimented with any of this.

 

I do think what you are proposing is a good thing and should incorporate the tabs for the truck linkage. I feel certain there are probably more than a few truck owners that would ultimately decide to go in this direction.

 

Jeff

Ok Jeff,  my misunderstanding.  Yes we have puddled or been involved with puddling with the 2 barrel manifolds. Edmunds and custom ones. I will attach a picture of a three carb version using 2 barrel carbs.  Cool yes,  lag in the throttle, yes, but back to cool.... yes..

 

We have also tried side draft webers and made adapters.  It was a bit of a linkage nightmare.  To be honest we could just eliminate carbs and go right to fuel injection as well, but we are trying to make it period performance and cool.

 

So I will remove you from the 2 barrel suggestion list and add you to the truck tab suggestion list..  lol..

 

As I add up the unoffical  totals,  I think between posts and emails we have 9 guys who suggest tabs, of those 2 that for sure want 1.

Honestly that is pretty good for just over 24 hours. On the car side we have had around 50 people interested and 10 that definately want them. So it we get somewhere close to 10 guys definately wanting truck tabs, we will do it.

 

Right now I am thinking after mocking up  a couple of examples on trucks.  Keep in mind out carb height is definately higher than stock.  I think we can put one tab below the center of the "log" ,  make it larger and then also use that tab to put a serial number on it.

I will attach a picture using a stock intake from a truck.

 

Being it would be one large tab it will also give the option of drilling and tapping in several places as a couple of guys

have suggested here on the forum.

 

Tim

[desoto]

tim I read your other posts on the p15 forum. I didnt see you guys number over here so I thought I would copy and paste it to try out the tools here.

 

You said over there - " George is located in Fertigs, PA and the shop number (where Asche Mechanic run by Rob and George III) is 814-354-2621 and

after work hours George can pick up that number in his house. Or you call the boys, they tell you to call back and they wont answer and the next time George will pick up. That is if he isnt over at the shop. He also has a full shop in his basement.

 

Me, I am located in Campbelllville Ontario canada. My family arrived here in 1795 and I live on the original property, albiet am in a new house.. lol.. built in 1862 so while I am the 7th generation to live in the property I am only the 5th generation to live in this house.

 

My cell number is 519-766-5695 and house number is 519-856-4576. I am basically 3 1/2 hours from my doors to Georges.

 

Tim"

 

I have called now and left a message on your cell and house numbers. I assume you check them often.

 

I for one definately want a dual carb intake for a powerwagon so I am hoping your getting enough interest to do the project. 

[timkingsbury]

tim I read your other posts on the p15 forum. I didnt see you guys number over here so I thought I would copy and paste it to try out the tools here.

 

You said over there - " George is located in Fertigs, PA and the shop number (where Asche Mechanic run by Rob and George III) is 814-354-2621 and

after work hours George can pick up that number in his house. Or you call the boys, they tell you to call back and they wont answer and the next time George will pick up. That is if he isnt over at the shop. He also has a full shop in his basement.

 

Me, I am located in Campbelllville Ontario canada. My family arrived here in 1795 and I live on the original property, albiet am in a new house.. lol.. built in 1862 so while I am the 7th generation to live in the property I am only the 5th generation to live in this house.

 

My cell number is 519-766-5695 and house number is 519-856-4576. I am basically 3 1/2 hours from my doors to Georges.

 

Tim"

 

I have called now and left a message on your cell and house numbers. I assume you check them often.

 

I for one definately want a dual carb intake for a powerwagon so I am hoping your getting enough interest to do the project. 

Thanks Phil -  I did get your message and I will call you this evening.   I think our contact information is already out there, but it doesnt hurt to have

it out there again.

 

Tim

[John-T-53]

I bought a dual 1-bbl manifold (modified from stock) for my truck a couple years ago from George, along with carbs and linkage, and it has worked very well. It would seem that going this route would be a lot easier than casting a complete new manifold; I guess the only limiting factor is supply of the old manifolds or time constraints of having one's own modified. But I see your goal here would be optimum flow - more than what a modified stock intake could provide?

 

One benefit of using the stock manifold is keeping the physical contact with the exhaust (if staying with single exhaust), because it takes a lot more time to get the intake hot with a dual carb setup. And that's from experience in coastal CA where it's not cold. And if you convert to headers, you can still heat the intake with water using the exhaust chamber.

 

Only thing I'd suggest on a new casting design is incorporating a water tube like the Edmunds intake, or perhaps a jacket cast in. Without a means for heat, more fuel will condense than make its way to the cylinders. What have you been experiencing with regard to this on your triple intakes?

Edited December 1, 2014 by John-T-53

[adminstrator_p15d24ph]

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