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Advise on old windwill


Todd B

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I bought a 1930's windwill in great working order.  I want to put in on my land and be able to water my garden with it.  I also bought an old Hudson Model 188 hand pump that I was told will work on a windmill.  What I would like to do is pump water into a water tower and when I want to water my garden I can open a valve and use drip lines to water my garden..  Any help would be appreciated

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The windmill we had merely brought the water up to the same level a hand pump would, meaning it exited the well head about 2 or 3 feet above the ground where it exited to a cistern.  I suppose it you mounted the well head ( Hudson Model 188 ) near the top of the windmill, it could be piped to a  tower.  Sucker rod always came out of the top of the pump and would be where the handle or windmill would be attached unless that hand pump is built differently that I'm aware of.

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I grew up with windmills, our only source of water for the ranch and for our pastures. The windmill will pump the water to the top of the well pipe. Most have that a couple of feet above the ground, but you want to fill a water tank, so add to the well pipe and rod enough length so that you have water above the level you want in the tank. The mill will pull the water to that level.

For dry spells you can add a flat piece to the well rod then you can detach the rod from the windmill, attach it to a pump jack and it will do what the mill will do. It modernizes the well. With an electric motor and a water level switch, the motor will keep the tank at what ever lever you desire.

Good luck. Put a fifty gallon barrel on a 7' stand, let it warm during the day and you have a nice warm shower after working in the garden. Go Green!

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If I have a 12' tall water tower/supply tank  are you saying I will have to mount my hudson pump above that.  I was thinking I could pump the water up to the storage tank..  I don't have any power down by my garden so do you have plan b on the shut off switch.  There is a wooden rod that goes to the windwill head to shut off the windmill from pumpng. 

 

Thanks

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If I have a 12' tall water tower/supply tank  are you saying I will have to mount my hudson pump above that.   There is a wooden rod that goes to the windwill head to shut off the windmill from pumpng. 

 

Thanks

Yes, has to be above the tank level. It's all gravity flow from the pump outlet.  The other thing you'll need is a drain valve in the well pipe to allow it to drain below freeze level.  If pumping out of the ground, that means the vent needs to be 5 or 6 feet below ground level.  The wooden rod swings the tail and applies a brake so when the wind hits the tail, the tail rotates the blades out of the wind so they don't turn.  There's supposed to be a governor in the mechanism also so it doesn't have a runaway.

 

I'm still not sure what exactly you're trying to do when pumping.  Are you trying to pump water out of the ground or from a reservoir?  Do you have a pic of the pump itself?

Edited by Dave72dt
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Whatever your power source, it attaches to the top of the jet rod. Look up pump jack in google. It will provide answers for a lot of your questions. If you do not know what a pump jack is then everything said above will not make sense to you.

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I will get some pictures over the weekend of my hand pump  I am tring to pump from a sand point well out of the ground and fill a resevoir tank.  I will then have head pressure to push water to all corners of my garden.  The picture Larry sent is what I was thinking.  I actualy have a set of wooden windmill paddles like to one on the above picture.  I am not using them, I am going to use the 8' diameter steel windmill. 

 

I have a water witch guy coming over to tell me if and how deep the water is. 

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Some well heads have closed tops, with packing that seals around the rod that extends down to the pump cylinder, usually below the water level.  This allows you to pump water up above the level of the pump body itself.  (You can only suck water up around 20 feet or so, at sea level.  That is why a cistern pump may have the cylinder in the pump body above ground, even inside a house.)  

 

Check out the deep well pumps at lehman's Hardware.

 

https://www.lehmans.com/c-275-deep-wells.aspx

 

(This store is about 25 miles form here, in Kidron. Ohio.  This is where we got the pumping equipment that we installed in a village well we drilled in the Amazon.)

 

Another way to pump water up into a holding tank is with air.  You inject air into the water line at least 3 feet below the water level.  Bubbles form in the pipe and force water up.  The water comes out in gushes.  We used this method to clean the well after drilling, and also to clear sand from inside the casing from time to time.  I have even pumped out gravel with this method, because there are no moving parts.  We pumped almost 20 gal per minute with a 2" pipe, and a good sized air compressor.

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These are the pumps I bought to use under my windmill.  I was at an auction and they both went cheap so I bought both of them, I fiqured I could make one out of the two.  The windmill I have is a Challenge "27", made in Bativa Illinios.  I believe in the 30's.   One big question I have is how deep of a concrete footing do I need?

post-204-0-47326800-1413159178_thumb.jpg

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Some interesting info after a web search for"installing an old windmill" showed up. No experience with these at all but used to see many out in the country to feed cattle. Almost all gone now. Miss them, part of the expanding USA history from back in the day.

 

DJ

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Just down the road from my folk's house in a rural part of Arizona the neighbors put in a well with and old fashioned windmill pump and tank about the same as you doing to provide water for their llamas. They installed it sometime in the last 10 or 15 years I think and I heard they bought the windmill and pump new. If that is true then there probably is a place you can buy anything you need to make your setup work.

 

Quick web search turns up this:


and


 

Of course there is the satisfaction in figuring out all the details and making it work yourself with out just buying the stuff.

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Some well heads have closed tops, with packing that seals around the rod that extends down to the pump cylinder, usually below the water level.  This allows you to pump water up above the level of the pump body itself.  (You can only suck water up around 20 feet or so, at sea level.  That is why a cistern pump may have the cylinder in the pump body above ground, even inside a house.)  

 

Check out the deep well pumps at lehman's Hardware.

 

https://www.lehmans.com/c-275-deep-wells.aspx

 

(This store is about 25 miles form here, in Kidron. Ohio.  This is where we got the pumping equipment that we installed in a village well we drilled in the Amazon.)

 

Another way to pump water up into a holding tank is with air.  You inject air into the water line at least 3 feet below the water level.  Bubbles form in the pipe and force water up.  The water comes out in gushes.  We used this method to clean the well after drilling, and also to clear sand from inside the casing from time to time.  I have even pumped out gravel with this method, because there are no moving parts.  We pumped almost 20 gal per minute with a 2" pipe, and a good sized air compressor.

 

 

Thanks for the  lead...  I called Lehmans and Roger there was very helpfull and said my pump will work with the windmill.  I also had a water witch guy come out today and he was amazing!!!!!!!!  I watched him do it with a willow stick and the willow bent over as he was tring to hold it upright.  He then used bent rods to see the direction of the stream underground.   Then he leaned down with another straight pieces of wire and counted the bobs.   He said I have a very good stream at 20' deep.   I asked him what was the deepest well he ever found, he said 1008' in Montana.  This guy is very well known for his gift and after seeing him I am a complete believer.  He did my sons well and he said there was a good stream at 40' going north and south but there is  a much better one at 60' going east and west. 

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Some well heads have closed tops, with packing that seals around the rod that extends down to the pump cylinder, usually below the water level.  This allows you to pump water up above the level of the pump body itself.  (You can only suck water up around 20 feet or so, at sea level.  That is why a cistern pump may have the cylinder in the pump body above ground, even inside a house.)  

 

Check out the deep well pumps at lehman's Hardware.

 

https://www.lehmans.com/c-275-deep-wells.aspx

 

(This store is about 25 miles form here, in Kidron. Ohio.  This is where we got the pumping equipment that we installed in a village well we drilled in the Amazon.)

 

Another way to pump water up into a holding tank is with air.  You inject air into the water line at least 3 feet below the water level.  Bubbles form in the pipe and force water up.  The water comes out in gushes.  We used this method to clean the well after drilling, and also to clear sand from inside the casing from time to time.  I have even pumped out gravel with this method, because there are no moving parts.  We pumped almost 20 gal per minute with a 2" pipe, and a good sized air compressor.

 

 

Thanks for the  lead...  I called Lehmans and Roger there was very helpfull and said my pump will work with the windmill.  I also had a water witch guy come out today and he was amazing!!!!!!!!  I watched him do it with a willow stick and the willow bent over as he was tring to hold it upright.  He then used bent rods to see the direction of the stream underground.   Then he leaned down with another straight pieces of wire and counted the bobs.   He said I have a very good stream at 20' deep.   I asked him what was the deepest well he ever found, he said 1008' in Montana.  This guy is very well known for his gift and after seeing him I am a complete believer.  He did my sons well and he said there was a good stream at 40' going north and south but there is  a much better one at 60' going east and west. 

 

I'm glad it worked out for you.  I hadn't seen the pictures you posted until now, but I was going to say that those both look like closed top well heads.  (I don't see a sucker rod on the one on the left, but the one on the right appears to have a flat bar type.  I would think that that type would be harder to seal around the rod than one with a round rod.  Well heads that are made to pump above themselves will always have that bulge near the top.  I think it is supposed to help even out, or reduce the back pressure on each stroke, because the enlarged area allows the air in the top of the well head to compress a bit.)

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The flat bar screws onto the round sucker rod and is locked in place with set screw, at least that's the way ours was.  Top on ours wasn't sealed tight.  I recall  quite a bit of movement on the rod when pumping with wind or the pumpjack.  We were pumping water from 420 feet with 30 ft of water and the wind wasn't reliable enough to depend on it for all our water usage, switched over to a pump jack and finally to a low volume submersible when we exhausted our supply of pumpjack parts.  We had all the equipment to pull the well and do repairs as well.  There's enough movement in the sucker rod at that depth to wear holes in the outer pipe, rub the sucker rods thin and break.   When it breaks near the top or a hole wears through near the top, the pipe below it is still full of water and gets real heavy.  We quit pulling it ourselves when one of the strands of rope in the block and tackle broke.  We really didn't want to get it partly out, have it break completely and drop it.  That's when the pros got called and the submersible went in.

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Use the mill to run an alternator to charge a battery or bank there of. Use an electric submersible pump with a level switch in your reservoir, that only runs the pump when water is actually needed. A couple of 55 gallon drums or one of those wire caged plastic tanks mounted a bit higher than you garden with some trickle irrigation hoses would make it pretty much set and forget.

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There's enough movement in the sucker rod at that depth to wear holes in the outer pipe, rub the sucker rods thin and break.

They make a plastic spacer that your sucker rod goes through, with other holes out around to let the water through, so as to keep the sucker rod from rubbing on the inside of the pipe.  I didn't use them, though.  We were only 80 some feet down, so yours is a LOT deeper, with a whole lot more water in the pipe.  

 

Lemanns also sells a well head designed for windmill use that uses a 2" drop pipe, and the cylinder is 1 7/8".  (If i remember correctly, it is called the Easy-Pull.)  This allow you to pull the rod and the insides of the cylinder parts up and out w/o pulling the drop pipe.  (It releases the water as soon as you have pulled it far enough that the leathers are up out of the cylinder.  It has a rod connecting to the foot valve, so that it releases as well, and also comes up and out when you pull the sucker rod out.)  I had first installed one like that, but it just doesn't have the volume that you need from a hand pump.  It would be fine for a windmill, however, because you just let it pump slowly when ever there is a bit of wind.  (Since it is moving less water per stroke, it takes less force to move it.)  That cylinder is a long stroke system, with double leathers instead of just one.

Edited by Eneto-55
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  • 2 weeks later...

When we took the windmill down I bent a few of the angle irons.  It was a 40' tower but after spending all afternoon looking things over I think its going to now be a 30' with 5' buried in concrete pillars.  I have equpment that reaches 34' and would make life easier to service and set up.  Plus It will be above the garden behind a 4' tall stone fence I am building.  I was pissed when it bent but I think I am over it now. 

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  • 1 year later...

Tower is standing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I built a 65" x 65" x 72" deep insulated pit below the tower and I ordered a cylinder from Lehman's today.  I have to get a few replacements of ball bearings and bushings on the head and I am hoping to have the head on before my luau Saturday.   This has been a very fun project for me, and I have met some interesting people along the journey.

 

I pounded the well last Sunday and hit water just as the water withcher gut said. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have a cool video but its too big to load. 

The mill pumps perfectly, I need to finish the rock retaining wall and the water storage tank yet.  I made one mistake and used treated lumber for the cover of the pit.  It should be a concrete cap.   I will change the cap in the spring when I get everything working for the garden irrigation. 

 

post-204-0-97460600-1472151074_thumb.jpgpost-204-0-94868500-1472151097_thumb.jpgpost-204-0-41593500-1472151189_thumb.jpg

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The Amish would have built the mill horizontally on the ground then erected it with "G" pole and horses same as my Dad did back in the 40's, except dad used a tractor. Still, very nice!

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Guessing about 35' to the head, about same height as our old one.  Ours had angle iron diagonals on the bottom section instead of the guy wires and the ladder steps were individually bolted into one of the corner uprights.  Is the clutch cable hooked up and governor working?

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