new airtex fuelpump

[greg g]

Just got a new airtex pump from an online supplier.  I wrote the following to the airtex tech e mail;

 

Just received a new 4227 fuel pump from an online supplier.  Upon examining the product I noticed, conspicuous by its absence, any mechanical or physical retainer on the cam lever fulcrum pin.  It appears to just be pushed in and retained by force of habit.  This is probably fine for sitting static in the box and a little bench testing.  I wonder about the strength of friction when the lever is doing 1200 to 1500 strokes per minute as the vehicle goes down the road.  I have heard of, and witnessed failures where the pin walked it self out, leading to pump failure, loss of power and stranding along side the road, to a situation where when the pin backed out the cam lever, the lever entered the engine oil pan and was propelled forcefully through the side of the oil pan by the crankshaft, leading to a catastrophic loss of oil pressure, rendering the car expensively in operable.

 

What assurance do I have, save for fabricating a retainer before I install it, that the same thing will not occur with this pump.  The pump I removed has a very obvious retaining device that is not on the new one.

[Lumpy]

I can assure you that none of the dozens of Airtex pumps I've had over the last thirty years has lasted very long for one reason or another.

My suggestion is, use the Carter rotary pump, which comes in 6V flavor, or some other type of rotary pump regardless of the cost. !!!

Just a thought!

ken

[Purevil]

From experience I can tell you the Airtex pumps are JUNK. As for the roll pin most manufactures peen over the casting  or "stake" the pocket if the original design did not have a retainer. I have seen a OEM Carter pump last 138,453 miles and the first replacement Carter pump only last 7 miles and the second replacement Carter has lasted almost 90,000 miles on it. The next replacement will include an engine however.

[greg g]

airtex reply;

 

Good afternoon. The pin is a press fit into the pump housing. Each side of the housing will be at least .003” smaller than the pin that way when the pin is pressed into the housing it cannot come out.

 

 

My reply to the above;

 

Good theory!!

 

[Don Coatney]

Should ask them if they will pay the towing, motel stay, meals, and repair bills.

[Dave72dt]

The pin has been pushed ALL the way through one of those .oo3 smaller holes and would think that particular hole is no longer.oo3 smaller but closer to the same diameter as the pin and is holding very little. I would suggest it will back the way it went in since only one hole is now a press fit. I'm not totally buying into their theory, especially with a steel pin against the soft aluminum. I'm not an engineer so what do I know. Chances are the response wasn't sent by one either.

[greg g]

Your are right Dave, there is a thin ring of displaced metal around the small end of the pin hole.Then there is the consideration for disparate rated of expansion of different materials considering the underhood operating temps.  I have communicated those concerns back to the airtex tech. 

[Niel Hoback]

Could you drill a tiny hole in the housing next to the pin and use a self-tapping screw head to cover the end of the pin?  Both ends.

[Tom Skinner]

Neil,

Good Idea. Screw it both ends. LOL

That would stop all the WA WA WA's.

Tom

[Niel Hoback]

Yeah, screw that idea.  I think I'll try it.

[Dave72dt]

There goes the warranty! Loose the warranty and save the engine.. Much more cost effective. Locktite the screws.

[Lumpy]

Carry a spare.

ken.

[Don Coatney]

I posted this a couple of days ago on another thread.

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#92735A250

 

 

 

[greg g]

some more conversation with airtex

 

Me,

 

Closer inspection of the pump reveals that the pin being .003 larger  and of a harder material than the hole, has displaced what looks like .003 of the body material and deposited it at the outside rim of the pump body.  Based on that I must now surmise that the pin and the hole are the same size or within a hair breath's difference.  Fine when both pin and body are at ambient temp.  So if the body expands with heat at a different rate than the pin, chances are the harder material (pin) will expand slower than the hole, making the hole larger than the pin.

 

Do I have your assurance that Airtex will assume responsibility for expenses related to a failure of this area of the pump's assembly.  Including mechanical damage, lodging, towing, meals, etc. while repairs are made.

 

airtex

 

Our pumps come with the manufacture warranty for material and workmanship. Our Tech Assistance hotline has not had a call on this or any other of our pumps for an issue like this. I would believe if we had an issue we would have heard about it from a customer. I feel confident that this will not be an issue.

 

Shane.

 

 

Perhaps folks who have encountered this problem with your pumps should contact Airtex Tech support and illuminate Shane as to the frequency of this failure and others that have been encountered.

 

techsupport@airtexproducts.com

Edited August 1, 2014 by greg g

[MarkAubuchon]

I can tell you first hand the pin can and will fall out, causing a major engine failure. However, since that time I have tried several other options and none of them have been any better. Back to airtex.

[greg g]

Mark, did you contact them when your failure occured???  It's kinda like when an Airline totally screws up your trip, they gives you a voucher for another flight........the expectation that it will be better doesn't hold much water...  Airtex seems to be the only player other than the rebuild kits. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Do what Don shows... New hardened  pin with "E" clips.

[wdoland]

Would a small dab of "J B Weld" on each side of the pin help hold it in?

[Don Coatney]

Would a small dab of "J B Weld" on each side of the pin help hold it in?

Might. But I would trust a pin with a shoulder and a C clip more than JB weld.

[desoto1939]

Ok for a discussion point. How many current members do we have on the forum and how many of the fourum members have current driving cars that they take to club events and cars show and also do local driving.

 

The next question is how many of these owners have had to replace a fuel pump becasue of this pin issue. and also how long was the current pump installed in the car.  Yes we can all get an occasional part that might prematurely go bad. But the way you guys are sounding as if this is happening every day. I have a New fp that has been in my 39 desoto for at least 10 years or more and it has the pin installed just as it came from the factory.

 

I feel that the issue that most of you are brining up has to do with the process of when rebuilding a pump becasue you have to drive out the current pin and this has a tendency to remove some metal on the piin hole and then when you install the pin after the rebuild you again are forcing the pin back into the same hole that might have had some of the hole ienlarged and guess what it gets enlarged again. 

 

So here is a suggestion can some touch base with Art Gold up in NY State who has been doing FP rebuilds and contact him or his son to see how many pumps they get returned or even get contacted by a current owner that they did the rebuild for to see if they are getting the same issues that all of you are stating.

 

HArd facts speak loudly not just an occasional issue.

 

This is why I like to buy new versu rebuild if the cost  is with in means.

 

I am not trying to pick on anyones comments or knowledge but lets see if we can get some hard facts to approach AIRTEX or any other manufacturer?

 

Please add you comments to this thread. All comments are welcome and no one is 100 correct or 100 percent wrong.

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

OK:  So i just got off the Phone with Art Gould concerning your issues with the pins coming out of the housing. He stated that he is not seeing this as a major issue and is not getting alot if any complains about this issue.  He has stated that sometime they levers and the internals might get colged becasue of old fuels and then you get problems.

 

So went to a good source and they are not seeing this as any type of issue.

 

Also they stated that if you feel that youmight have an issue you can contat them and they wil work out a way to insure that they pin willnot come out of the housing.

 

Art Gould   Arthur Gould Rebuilders ● 5R Main Street ● Kings Park, NY 11754 ● (631)269-0093

 

Rich HArtung   Desoto1939@aol.com

[Barabbas]

Rich,

 

Per your request for data--the fuel pump that was in 'Doris" my P23 lasted about 10,000 miles, I have no idea how many miles it operated before I  bought her.  The fuel pump failed via the pin working out. I put a new fuel pump from Vintage Power wagons iin the  Spring of 2013--it failed via the pin working out after 3000 miles and 6 months.  A replacement fuel pump from Rock Auto lasted 5 minutes, again the pin worked out.  I am now running the original pump that has a an Antique Cellar rebuild kit--it has about 500 miles on it with no problems

[Barabbas]

Rich--a correction. the original Fuel Pump failed due to a deteriorated pump diaphragm and not the pin working out

[desoto1939]

Rich--a correction. the original Fuel Pump failed due to a deteriorated pump diaphragm and not the pin working out

So did you rebuild this pump that failed not due to the pin but the diaphragm. If you did then push out the pin to rebuild then there is a possibility that the hole became bigger when you rebuilt it.  And I can see this happening and in this case then I would suggest what Don is doing by replacing the pin and adding in the c clip to hold the pin from moving out of the body.

 

Ok so we have two examples out of how many other members for an x factor of failure rate.  So more input is still need to really state that new pumps have issues with the pins.

 

Rich Hartung

[40phil41]

My experiences:

1. 1941 Dodge. End of May 2014, new airtex pump, under 200 miles. Pin walked out, tow home. Lever did not fall into oil pan.

2. Several years ago, same car, airtex pump, just under 800 miles. Pin walked out, lever dropped into oil pan. No damage to engine. Had spare pump available.

 

I am planning on getting the pin suggested by Don above.

 

Phil