So a great idea for Overdrive or am I smoking crack?

[bumpside]

Hey guys, while chasing some old Jeep parts and checking on an ebay 5 speed from a `48 that we didn't grab, I had an epiphany about a long convoluted way to get a poor man's OD for running behind the original 230 in my old man's Pilothouse 1 Ton.  So bear with me:

 

He wants to keep the stick and the original rear end, he doesn't want to cut the floor more than necessary, and really wants to keep his "deep first" granny gear for crawling up out of his long, steep driveway (I'm not exaggerating either - couple hundred feet and varies between about 10% and 40% in grade).  So the truck has a T9 in it that he's fine with other than the 1 Ton having too short a pumpkin but he doesn't want to change the rear.  So, after much research, I hit on the fact that the T8/T9 were the forerunner to the T98 and the grandaddies of the still quite common T18/T19.  So what if we put in a later truck 4 speed that we can "somewhat cheaply" adapt to a Dana 18 transfer case that will accept a Warn/Saturn PTO overdrive?  Options abound for Dodge New Process 435's as well as Dodge & Ford T98/T18/T19.  There are lots of options for the Tcase adaptation and the extra weight is really a non issue in a 1 Ton that's already heavy and always running an empty flatbed.  It sounds like a winner IF I can fit one of these later transmissions into the bell of the old 230 without going too crazy.

 

So here are my questions:

 

1. Does anyone have the specs for the input shaft and bell housing back pattern on these?  I know on my Fords the bell's rear is pretty much identical up until they went integral and the variables are all input shaft length, diameter, and spline count.  What's up with the old 230 Dodge?  I can't seem to find any specifications on this kind of stuff on the web (shaft length, spline count, pilot bearing diameter, etc.). 

 

2.  Given the above, the next question (or maybe the real question) is how hard is it to adapt the later truck trannies? 

 

3.  How big are the differences for the tranny interface specs (drilling a few mount holes isn't scary but finding a correct or adaptable input shaft is the question) between the old Dodge and my Ford trannies?  For instance, I've got a 4x4 T19 sitting out in AZ that we could make a great start with...

 

So what say?  Does anyone have either the answers or the raw data so I can find my own?  I know you guys have got something! Share with me for the old man's sake! ;-)

[gtech636p]

The adapters for bothe the bellhousing to transmisison and transmission to transfercase you're looking for should be readily available from novak (novakadapt.com) or advance adapters (advanceadapters.com).  Both have a sizeable amount of information to read on the various options.  I believe novak will sale a complete kit for these setups as well (NP435 to D18, SM465 to D18, or NV4500 to D18), but they will be a bit pricey.  Another invaluable source for Saturn, aka Warn/Husky, overdrive unit would be "herm the overdrive guy" (hermtheoverdriveguy.com). 

 

The saturn overdrive is a good unit to have, I have one in my willys.  That said, the amount of information I know about it is somewhat limited and dated since I completed my project.  I learned most things through the earlycj5.net forum as well.  The SM465 and T18 are common builds for early CJ's as well.

 

Hopefully this helps a little bit.

[bumpside]

Thanks Gtech.  Ironically, I'm well up on both Novak and Advanced as well as Herm.  One of the first things I did when I thought of doing this was to check on Novak's excellent site for info on mating the D18 to the pickup trannies.  The Novak adapter to mate the D18 to a t18/t19 is $550 which is not pocket change but, when combined with the cost of a used but working Warn/Saturn, it is still about the cheapest option I've been able to piece together to keep a deep first and get a solid OD.  All the above have great reps for working well and taking abuse.  That's why I'm excited about this!  Depending on prices we find, there's a good chance we'll end up with a "10 speed" overdrive drivetrain that's close enough to bulletproof for a 100HP/200lbft. flathead six that's between $1K and $2K total!  That's really cheap!

 

The reason I haven't just called Novak outright about this (they have great pre-sales support!) is that I wanted to confirm data on the 230 vs. the rest of the Dodge engines that are more common for their realm - nobody is transplanting these things into 4x4's in place of something else.  I'm not assuming they don't know their trade, I just figure that the old Dodge six is outside of their likely experience as wide as it is.

 

Anyway, thanks for the data, redundant or not.  I'm always happy to get the cross reference and have validation of my sources.  The feedback on the Warn/Saturn is appreciated too as we're looking at them for this and for our old CJ5.  Happy Jeeping!

[gtech636p]

Yup, my truck came as a shell, I have no idea what the stock bellhousing, engine,  or transmisison looks like so I can't comment on any of the forward things.  

 

Good luck with the project though, the extra gear split is a nice thing to have.

[wayfarer]

An adapter to mount any Mopar small block bellhousing is available so, in theory, find the late trans and bell, then buy the adapter and go for it. The flywheel is an easy work-a-round if you are using all Mopar parts. Mix in the brand 'x' stuff and the costs will go up.

If you want to use something like the NP3550 same process.

[bumpside]

"An adapter to mount any Mopar small block bellhousing is available"

 

Thanks Wayfarer!  That's exactly the kind of data I was looking for.  I'd love to keep it all Mopar for him.  So I'm up for all kinds of learnin' but company name would be very helpful.  Are you talking about Wilcap?  Quality Engineered?  Someone else? 

 

Thanks in advance!

[nonstop]

At the risk of sounding like a nay sayer, the Dana 18 has an offset output, which may throw a wrench into the operation.

[Frank Elder]

"An adapter to mount any Mopar small block bellhousing is available"

 

Thanks Wayfarer!  That's exactly the kind of data I was looking for.  I'd love to keep it all Mopar for him.  So I'm up for all kinds of learnin' but company name would be very helpful.  Are you talking about Wilcap?  Quality Engineered?  Someone else? 

 

Thanks in advance!

Hey Bumpy The guy who gave you that advice sells adaptors himself........he just doesn't like to load us up with self serving spam.......

[bumpside]

@ Frank Elder - Thanks!  That said, I do officially request info on all options for adapters to SB Mopar, Wayfarer's included.  It's not spam if I'm asking for it!

 

@nonstop - Crap!  You get the credit for "Solved" because that is a massive monkey wrench and you are 100% correct.  As the owner of two Cherokees and a part owner of an old CJ5, I absolutely should have known better!  Thanks for catching me on the way down the wrong path.  Ah well, at least I found info on the late model bellhousing be an option.  That brings up all the NV trannies as well as being able to guarantee fitment on a later 4 speed which can accept a GV or US OD more readily.

 

Meanwhile, Wayfarer, you're info is officially requested!  Thanks in advance!

[gtech636p]

Running a D18 with a centered differential axle, and a lift, can be done in an early CJ with a double cardan driveshaft.  It's not fun doing it, but it can be done.

 

That said, The additional length for the driveshaft in the pilothouse should be enough to really negate any issues from the passenger offset x-fer output.  It shouldn't be a deal breaker, but just one more thing to think about before deciding whether or not to go for it.

[bumpside]

I hadn't thought of that.  In reality, with the distance between the diff and the output, it wouldn't be that bad.  The biggest problem would probably be that you now have two angles rather than one.  Might eliminate some harmonics but it would be a bit rough on the U-Joints.  Still, it could work.  Hmmm...