Continuing OD saga...

[James_Douglas]

Don,

The car was on a road trip across the Bay. I was accelerating and the OD did not energize when I lifted out of the throttle at about 27 MPH. I leaned back into the throttle and ran it up to a little over 30 MPH and it engaged. My little voice said that was odd.

I stopped for about an hour at an appointment.

When I left and was heading down a boulevard on my way to the freeway the OD would not shift.

I tried it several times and it would not shift. I stopped and pulled the cable out, thus locking out the OD, and drove the car home.

I preceded to run the tests in both the Chrysler Books and the BW books. Everything checked out OK.

The last step in one of the books was to take the cap off of the SOL and inspect it. When I did that I had bits fall out on my chest, the thing smelled of burning, and the mail contact point was melted away.

George said to me, when I called, that sometimes the points stick and that happens. He sent another SOL and I put it in.

As soon as the car hits 27 MPH and the Governor grounds and makes the circuit complete, the fuse on the relay burns out.

I bench tested the SOL the only way I can by powering it via a battery on the bench. With chassis grounded and 6V added to #4 connection the shaft comes out. I have no spec's on testing it under a load to see how much current it is drawing.

If I connect the SOL to the wiring and hold it in my hand at the fender and put current to it via the relay the 30 AMP fuse blows.

So, I say to myself if the SOL will work on the bench directly but not powered off the relay the relay must be bad.

Since I can not get a relay over the weekend, I say heck, I will build that Studebaker replacement circuit as I want to use the shifter kick down anyway and not the throttle one.

I build it and I get the exact same behavior.

PS, I took out Georges toggle switch a long time back, just to not muddy the waters.

********

Although it is costing me about $350, I have NOS Autolite Relay and a NO®S Solenoid on its way.

Between now and then I am going to re-build the wiring harness from scratch using the best automotive cross-linked wire money can buy.

Every circuit will get a resistance test and logged. I will run a BIG DC motor with the primary wires for 30 Minutes to make sure they are OK.

Then we will see what happens.

On this point about George. It does not matter if he has built a hundred of them. You only find out about customer service when something is going wrong and his tone on the phone has been one of someone who is acting a little clueless. If he has built dozens of these things then he should KNOW every little problem that can creep up after years of experience with them.

CYA comments as opposed to some comments like "let me think about it over night and I will call YOU tomorrow" would be more encouraging after spending $1800 with him.

The final point. The thing worked for 3 weeks then failed. I had to have the wiring correct or it would not have worked. Something I was sold lasted only 3 weeks. The replacement part will not work. Now I am spending $350 on emergency parts to get the thing going...if that fixes it.

Best, James

[Plymouthy Adams]

I find it very odd that all this electrical is happening after the post on Bad Amp meter....you answered very few question, in other threads I read you also done work to the Alternator by rebuild, changing from neg to positive gnd, you stated under dash wiring changed by you and also the rewiring of the OD wiring all at the same time...The solenoid should not fry as it is intended to operate with volts on one leg and ground on the other...I am more inclined to believe that a heavier current drain from somewhere else may have tried to use the solenoid as a path to ground..as in something is crosswired. This would explain the copper coil dropping out in small copper melted BB's..and as Gerorge has not had the privledge nor luxury to inspect your car and its wiring I can see how he can be at a loss for explaination and further I recall no other individuals ever having a problem of this nature with his units.

I fully believe that an inspection of your wiring is necessary...this is frustrating to say the least and you are getting tired of the problem..it is time to back away...read a bit..grab a coffee..go over what you have done mentally and try to establish a base line point and return to that point prior to work done to your electrical. For it not to pop a fuse on the bench and immediately pop one in circuit on the car tells me there is a short to ground on the power feed...

[RobertKB]

James, I know this will not help with your present problem but I think your overall problem is you are trying to make your car behave like a new one. I often find when people make changes to their cars it causes more problems than cures. My brother used to run a '50 Chrysler New Yorker straight 8 as a daily driver but just found it too unrealistic and expensive to maintain so he sold it. If you want a car that will do what modern cars do you should hot rod your car. Of course, I know you would never do that as your car is a true beauty but it is 60 years old. Although I admire you motivation, I believe driving a car that vintage as a daily driver in a big city is probably overtaxing it. It may be cheaper in the long run to buy a cheap small car for daily driving and keep your beautiful antique car for fun runs. Just my honest opinion for what it's worth.

[littleman]

Nothing more frustrating than a problem not solved, but your problem sounds like one that has not been hashed over in this forum before, yet you are getting some good tech advice to try and resolve the problem from knowledge people.

Electrical snafus can sometimes be caused by mechcanical malfuntions, such as, the OD cable not moving the selector inside the OD into the proper position to allow the solenoid to do what it has to do, and reduce the amp load. Don't know if this means anything, but it only takes a few minutes to check the cable, and connections.

Good luck, and don't give up. Your problem might help someone in the future. Isn't that what forums are all about.

AL

PS might trying to get in contact with member Bob Amos

[Dodgeb4ya]

I think George is old and worn out on OD`s ! Bob

[sorensen_dk]

James,

First, I have no experience with the Asche OD or the aux. circuit to control it but I'm following this thread because I'm considering putting an OD in my '38.

Second, I do know a bit of electrical engineering and what really puzzles me is - to quote your earlier posting:

"2. The Pawl that the solenoid pushes in is not moving and thus causing the solenoid to draw too much current and blowing the fuse."

That is a pretty precise description of a problem! If the solenoid NOT pushing in is the cause of blowing the fuse (as you state), blowing the fuse is just the consequence of a problem somehwere else (mechanical?) The purpose of the fuse IS to protect you curcuit in case of failure (abnomal current draw).

So if you know the Pawl is failing you must address that problem.

Good luck with your trouble shooting,

Tom

[Don Coatney]

I think George is old and worn out on OD`s ! Bob

Bob;

Do you have an overdrive transmission in your car? To make a comment like this you must have had a bad experience with George Asche. Care to elaborate? Do you know anyone who is better at building overdrive transmissions?

[billwillard]

Is There Any Thing Else On This Same Fuse?

[Normspeed]

Bill, it's a dedicated circuit, nothing else on that fuse.

If George could provide just one more governor, on an exchange basis, that would really go a long ways towards solving this one.

Is There Any Thing Else On This Same Fuse?

[jd52cranbrook]

You can also take the governor out of the circuit completely, and ground that leg. Course I didn't read the whole thread.

[James_Douglas]

Everything you folks have suggested I have done/tried.

It is down to two things that may be wrong:

1. I used the shaft from the old SOL to move the Pawl in and out of the control ring. It does not slip in nice like I would expect as each one of the six cutouts on the ring goes by. I turned it by hand turning the crankshaft while pushing in on the pawl. I also had to run back and forth the lockout lever several times before I could get the pawl to engage.

2. The SOL seems to be very sensitive to voltage/current. (E=I/R) When I press the SOL case directly onto the positive side of the battery and use a 10" length of #10 wire to complete the circuit it works fine. I hold it down and the wire does not get hot.

SO...I am going to call "The Great George" and ask him if he can turn the output shaft on one of his transmission on the bench while trying to pucs the pawl in and see if he gets his to engage on each step on the control ring. I need a qualitative answer to how that pawl goes in to know if I do or do not have a problem.

As to the second issue. I have a NOS SOL, NOS Auto-lite Replay, and a NOS kick down switch on my desk or incoming. I also ordered 200 feet of Cross-Linked Polyethylene SXL automotive wire. I got 30 Feet of # 8 for the power feed. This stuff is the best of the best of auto wire. Much better than the PVC in the Q&A of the copper as well as able to take 2 time the heat.

I am pulling out the wiring harness and going to rebuild it again with the new wire. I will run resistance checks and log them of each wire when finished. I also found a set of specifications for the SOL. I will run the test on both the 2nd SOL George sent as well as the NOS one.

I will then put it all back in and see what happens. Look for another update around Friday.

James

[Dodgeb4ya]

Have had plenty of OD`s.Still do.Have a restored 52 Belvedere W/OD, a 51 Cranbrook which I put a OD in it in 1970 -still works today. I have 5 OD`s sittin in the parts room too. I have rebuilt a lot of these transmissions both pin and strut type. Have rebuilt R-1 Chrysler Airflow OD`s, a couple of R-6 and 7 OD`s.I have rebuilt, repaired probably 50-75 of the R-10`s. Also done a lot of the M-5` and 6`s for the Dod,Des,Chryslers.Anyway not braggin just telliing you my experience`s with these transmissions. Keep em full of oil and keep the electric`s good and they are trouble free.I think George ought to send out another solenoid. Winding`s could be shorted enough so under the plunger push in load too much current draw. Correct fuse is 20 amps. Correct solenoid for Plymouth,52-55 is #1118155.Some other #`s of solenoids require 30 amp fuse.Current draw W/solenoid out of the car, both coils-hold in and pull-in @5 volts draw 26.2 to 28.4 amps.Hold in coil alone only draws 1.2-1.4 amps.Contact points gap is .022-.040 W/plunger against stop. 10 guage wire required to the solenoid on #4 terminal too.Correct wiring and relay is very important! Thats all! Bob

[Suddensix]

Thanks to Dodgeb4ya's post I just discovered that I have been running a 6volt solenoid on a 12 volt car for a year or so with no problems. How can this be? From the electrically challenged Suddensix!!!

[greg g]

6V stuff is usually built a lot stouter than 12 V as it must carry a lot of current, thicker wires, more turns bigger terminals. You may eventually toast the energizing coil but then again may not ever hurt it. Check your starter, it may be a 6 volt also. Lets see I usta know this one had a red tag the other green but I can't remember which is which.

[De Soto Frank]

James,

I have read all the posts down to the bottom of the thread, and believe me, I can appreciate your frustration, especially with the amount of money you've invested in the project.

I understand how you've been using the "fuse-fail" method of determining current-draw on your bench test of the solenoid. You still haven't mentioned what kind of current (Amps) the solenoid is actually pulling. The fact that it doesn't pop the fuse on the bench suggests that the solenoid is functioning correctly

If you do not have any ammeter capable of measuring 45-60 amps, I would recommend finding one... a good, old, Sun, Wiednehoff, or similar unit, such as was used for testing starting and charging circuits "back in the day".

No serious driver of a 6-volt car should be w/o one.

(Speaking from my own experience, I could not properly adjust my mechanical voltage regulators until I got such a unit (Wiedenhoff Volt/Ammeter, c. 1940, with resistance rheostat), which has voltage scales of 10 volt/20 volt, with 1/10th volt divisions, and amp scales of 30 amp/ 60 amps, with 1/2 amp divisions.)

Also, it has been my experience working on a variety of older electrical systems ( automotive and non), then when a circuit gets overloaded or dead-shorted, frequently, other components in the circuit get damaged too, and even if you replace/repair the cause of the overload, other parts of the circuit are compromised. That is why I was suspicious of the solenoid contacts of the relay becoming burned and contributing to resistance in the circuit. Possible there's resistance/burning at crimp connectors too ? ( I find this frequently in a lot of our stage cable for lighting at the theatre. All repairs/ new plugs installed in-house have their lugs srimped AND soldered.)

As for when the pawl engages in the sun-gear, the pawl itself should move smoothly in its bore, and return easily under its spring pressure, but will not necessarily fully engage with a notch in the sun-gear unless the sun-gear is revolving, and when the drive-shaft is "over-running" the tranny output shaft.

( the unit doesn't complete its up-shift until you lift your foot off the gas. )

I wish you a succesful outcome in all of this and hope that George also comes-through; most of what I've heard about the man and his work has been positive.

Good luck !

Frank McMullen

[claybill]

WOW!!! i have an overdrive unit in my 41......after reading all the posts..i am afraid to engage it. i'll just keep it there for looks.

bill

[Don Coatney]

Have had plenty of OD`s.Still do.Have a restored 52 Belvedere W/OD, a 51 Cranbrook which I put a OD in it in 1970 -still works today. I have 5 OD`s sittin in the parts room too. I have rebuilt a lot of these transmissions both pin and strut type. Have rebuilt R-1 Chrysler Airflow OD`s, a couple of R-6 and 7 OD`s.I have rebuilt, repaired probably 50-75 of the R-10`s. Also done a lot of the M-5` and 6`s for the Dod,Des,Chryslers.Anyway not braggin just telliing you my experience`s with these transmissions. Keep em full of oil and keep the electric`s good and they are trouble free.I think George ought to send out another solenoid. Winding`s could be shorted enough so under the plunger push in load too much current draw. Correct fuse is 20 amps. Correct solenoid for Plymouth,52-55 is #1118155.Some other #`s of solenoids require 30 amp fuse.Current draw W/solenoid out of the car, both coils-hold in and pull-in @5 volts draw 26.2 to 28.4 amps.Hold in coil alone only draws 1.2-1.4 amps.Contact points gap is .022-.040 W/plunger against stop. 10 guage wire required to the solenoid on #4 terminal too.Correct wiring and relay is very important! Thats all! Bob

Thanks for the reply Bob;

You should add a bit more information about yourself in your profile and some pictures of your cars. Where are you located?

[De Soto Frank]

Clay,

I wouldn't be too scared... which OD do you have: the full-electric R-10 ( has both a governor and a solenoid on the OD unit ( "two cans") ) or the "semi-electric" R-7 (pre-WW II, has just a solenoid ( "one can") )?

The semi-electric uses the solenoid for kick-down only, and there's a "lot less to go wrong", as the control circuitry is much simpler.

On the other hand, since the upshift into OD is controlled by a centrifugal clutch inside the OD unit with the semi-electric, you may not have the flexibility for "split-shifting" with OD & 2nd gear like the guys do with the Post-war units. I believe the semi-electric is factory-set to upshift into OD at about 35 mph; don't know about your Plymouth, but my '41 De Soto sounds like it's ready to blow-up by about 25 MPH in 2nd-gear, thanks to the "short 2nd gear" and 4.1 rear.

If your OD seems to upshift and downshift smoothly and reliably, and there's no raspy or whiny noises when running in OD, go ahead and use it !

Happy motoring !

De Soto Frank

[claybill]

thanks frank...i will look at my 'cans' this am.

i tried it and it goes into OD, and i get that freewheeling feel.....what is the dash button for? supposing i just push in the handle and nothing else?

the unit runs silently. loaded with odd jobs this weekend...but with a moment i'll go for a test spin and try out all the 'tips'.

thanks bill

[James_Douglas]

Anyone, other than Pete, running and OD with the kickdown switch removed in favor of one of the shifter mounted push button's ?

I need to finish the wiring this afternoon as the NOS parts are do in tomorrow.

James

[James_Douglas]

Here is thew wiring as of Friday Night. Note use of 2 relays to replace the kickdown switch.

James