Continuing OD saga...

[James_Douglas]

So,

The replacement OD solenoid from George shows up. I install it. I head down the street and it does not shift.

I figure, oh S$!T, it fried the replacement solenoid. No, it just blew the fuse on the relay.

I replace the fuse and try it again. Fired fuse. Hummmmmmm...

Ok, So I say lets take the solenoid wire off the relay and go for a ride. If the problem is inside the relay then it should kill the fuse when the governor grounds and activates the relay.

Fuse is fine. Hummm.....

Ok, maybe it is the normally open wires on the kick down switch. I take them off and tape them over and try it. Blows the fuse. Not that.

The lockout switch only prevents the relay from working so I doubt that is it.

I took the cover off of the solenoid and checked the main points and it looked fine, no melting away.

I check all the wires, hand over hand, and I can see no breaks in the system.

Anyone have any ideas as I am at a loss ?

James

[De Soto Frank]

Other ideas:

- Lift the solenoid wire at the the solenoid and tape. Either drive the car to operate the governor, or ground the governor terminal at the relay and see if the fuse pops... ( if it does, it would appear there is a dead short in the wiring).

-Try disconnecting the solenoid wire from the relay, and also from the solenoid and checking it with a meter/light for shorts to ground?

-Remove solenoid from car and check current-draw on bench with battery & ammeter. Does it exceed the fuse/relay capacity /book spec ?

-Did George send you a 6-volt solenoid or a 12 -volt ? (Not sure that a 12-volt solenoid on a six-volt system would blow the fuse... but ??)

-What gauge is the wire running from the relay to the solenoid ?

These are really basic ideas that you may have already tried but this is what comes to mind from my experiences trying to troubleshoot various electrical issues with my '48 NYer, which had a relay and solenoid involved.( I know the M-5 has different components and that they operate somewhat differently than the R-10 OD, but I spent my share of time resolving bad wiring and broken relay stuff)

I would not rely solely on visual inspection to declare the wiring "short-free"...

I hope it turns out to be something simple and easily corrected...

Good luck !

De Soto Frank

[40phil41]

In my case the solenoid wouldn't work but there wasn't a fuse issue. [1940 Dodge, 6V +ve ground]. For what it's worth, I changed the wire gauge from the relay to the solenoid from 14 to 10 gauge and voila it now works beautifully.

Phil

[Normspeed]

James, dumb question here, but are you sure the fuse is of a high enough amp rating?

Beyond that, I could only suggest the very good schematics and troubleshooting steps that are in some of the shop manuals. My manual covers 46-54 Plymouths and I found the troubleshooting steps to be very clear, given in the correct order, and doable with a minimum of specialized tools or instruments.

[James_Douglas]

Two days same problem.

We pulled all, the new, wiring and checked every wire. No problems.

We bench tested the kick down switch for problems. Check OK.

We bench tested the Relay. Problem with very fine wire going from relay coil terminal to coil chassis. Fixed. No change and may have melted that hair thick relay coil wire, but did not open it back up to check.

We used 15, 20, and 30 AMP fuses. I have a pile of them fried on my bench. The governor kicks in, the fuse blows. Every time.

We disconnected the SOL wire from the fuse, and run the #1 check in the book. The relay clicks.

We ground the wire for the Govenor, as in the book, and the thelay turns on the connector to the SOL. I touch the wire to the SOL for maybe 1 seconds and you hear it try to energize. I left for maybe 2 seconds and then try it blows at the 1 or 2 second point.

What is going on is that the SOL is trying to draw too much current. This is the SOL that George sent me.

How do you check the SOL to see if it is trying to draw too much current ?

Thanks, James

PS The wire to the SOL is a 12 GA and does not appear to get warm at all.

[De Soto Frank]

"How do you check the SOL to see if it is trying to draw too much current"

with the solenoid either in the car or on the bench, connect an ammeter in series between the solenoid and a six-volt battery ( Battery negative to ammeter to insulated terminal of solenoid; battery postive to solenoid case.).

Watch the ammeter as you complete the circuit and see how much current is being drawn. If you want to protect the ammeter with a 30 amp fuse, that's fine.

My 1959 edition of MoToR's repair manual mentions that the solenoid for both the early R-7 and later R-10 ODs has two coils: a heavy "traction coil" and a lighter "hold-in coil". The heavy coil actually moves the pawl rod, then the traction contacts open and the hold-in coil keeps the pawl rod engaged, using much less current. "It [the fuse] is designed to burn-out if the duration of the flow of current through the main solenoid [traction coil] is greater than a few seconds."

Perhaps there is not enough travel of the pawl rod to open the contacts on traction coil and the points are not being opened in time to prevent the fuse from blowing. Removing the unit from the car and testing on the bench should verify this: you should have an initial heavy current draw (15 Amps or more) that then drops to a couple of amps as the points open and the holding coil takes over.

If the solenoid works correctly on the bench( doesn't blow the fuse -test for five to ten minutes ) but not when installed on the car, that would suggest to me that the rod might be slightly longer and bottoming in the pawl ring before the contacts can open.

If this turns-out to be the case, I would call George and ask HIM how to correct this; my inclination would be to add a thin gasket(s) between the solenoid and OD case, but don't know what effect too little travel might have on the mechanicals...

My best thought at the moment... will keep poring over the musty books...

De Soto Frank

[James_Douglas]

Ok,

So we pull the solenoid and and drag it up onto the fender. We run a wire from the wire connection under the car to the #4 post. We also add a ground the SOL.

Our working theory is that the Pawl is not going in and this the SOL is on high current coil too long and blowing the fuse. We figure that if we pull it and test it allowing the shaft to move, that the high current points in the main coil will cut out and we will not pop a fuse.

Of course if we are correct the trans will have to come out.

We try it and the SOL does not work, and it blows the fuse. Hummm.....

Ok, so whats up. A bad # 2 SOL ? We drag the SOL over to the bench and cut 2 short #10 wires (BTW The SOL wire in the car is #10 not #12 as I reported before) and tried it on the battery. SOL works. Hummm....

We check the resistance in the wire feeding the SOL. Check out just fine.

So, we wire the SOL back up on the fender and ground it to the alternator arm which is direct to the BAT cable. We round the Governor lead on the relay which energizes the SOL terminal on the relay. We then jump direct from that SOL terminal to the #4 post on the SOL and it blows the fuse.

We jump the #4 direct to the battery and the SOL works.

Although the relay passes all static tests, it can not handle passing the current to the SOL without burning the fuse.

The real question is why ?

Time to ponder and have a drink. Boy am I glad I did not decide to make a run for Tulsa. It would have killed my wallet, hearing, and engine to drive at 60 MPH in 3rd gear with a 4.11 read end for a thousand miles or more.

James

[Al Martin]

Well, this makes me wanna put a T5 gearbox in my P20.

Straight through mechanic, no electrical mumbo jumbo.

Once done, no more hassle.

Please Lord, give me a Transmission kit!!

Al

[Dodgeb4ya]

I`d say tell George to send you a GOOD solenoid!!! Bob

[Tony_Urwin]

I agree. Doesn't cost much to ship, and swapping in a known good part is a great way to test it. Just make sure you have 45 minutes free to talk to George when you make the call.

[Don Coatney]

Ok,

The real question is why ?

James

James;

Something basic is missing here. Did you ring out all connections on your relay to insure nothing is going to ground? The electromagnet in your relay is magnetically linked to the switch but the two are NOT linked electrically. Why would the fuse blow unless there is an electrical connection where there should not be one?

[James_Douglas]

Don,

I know, It makes no sense what so ever. Many years ago I had something similar happen in an amplifier. Under regular testing everything showed fine on one circuit. Once it had to carry some real current, it would cause a ground.

I found a schematic from the Studebaker folks that shows how to replace all the original relay and kick down switch with 2 radio shack relays that cost about $15. I am going to try this and see what I get.

James

http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/transmission/BW-OD/ODrlyrep.html

I wanted to talk with the Mr. Godel and dropped a line to the Studebaker guys and was told he is dead. here is the info on the designer of this circuit. http://www.wcacastronomy.org/carlogodel.html

[De Soto Frank]

James,

Have you put an ammeter in the test circuit to see how much current the solenoid is actually pulling ?

I did some more reading last night (Chilton's: 1950-'59) and most six-volt cars with OD used a 20 or 30 amp fuse on the solenoid circuit. (These would be post-war cars using the R-10 "full-electric" OD ).

Another thought: perhaps the solenoid contacts in the relay burned when the first solenoid fried, and now there is excessive resistance across the relay contacts, which is now enough to pop the fuse ?

[James_Douglas]

Frank,

It does not matter which fuse I put in. I have a pile of 20 AMP and 30 AMP burned out fuses on my bench.

The 30 AMP just blow "harder" as in the glass broken than the 20's.

I am in the middle of doing the cutting and soldering to try the Stude modern relay version. Since I can't order a new relay until Monday, I figure why not give it a go.

It costs about $20 for the stuff at radio shack vs. $75 for the replacement one.

On the bright side, the work to convert the fan to the flex-o-lite nylon one worked out well and it pulls a lot of air at idle. The thing also is about 10% the weight of the metal factory fan.

Best, James

[Suddensix]

Any chance of seeing some photos of your fan conversion? I would like to get rid of my original fan for something lighter. Good luck with the O.D. problem

[James_Douglas]

Any chance of seeing some photos of your fan conversion? I would like to get rid of my original fan for something lighter. Good luck with the O.D. problem

I will in a few days...james

[jd52cranbrook]

Frank,

It costs about $20 for the stuff at radio shack vs. $75 for the replacement one.

Best, James

Man, where are you getting your relays at? 75 bucks????? I dont think so.

[jd52cranbrook]

Aint it pretty?

You should be able to get relays for less than 20 as I remember.

Problem with relays are the diagrams in the manuals refer to 6 volt positive ground. Remember to switch it when running 12 volts.

Good luck

[James_Douglas]

Man, where are you getting your relays at? 75 bucks????? I dont think so.

The ORIGINAL BW-overdrive relay replacement is between $60 and $100 depending on were you get one.

AN NOS one on eBay can go as high as $175.

Of course, if you read the entire thread and not just the last entry....

James

[jd52cranbrook]

Gee, thanks for the rooling eyes,,,,, lol,,

I read the thread, and surprised you havent figured it out by now.

Save your reply. Roll your eyes somewhere else. Im busy building a motor.. sheeze,,

[jd52cranbrook]

Napa part number EC LR32, ( if I remember right ),, $48

good luck again,, pay attention to ground.

[Guest jtw3749c]

If it is of any interest to you, there is n Overdrive manual for Chrysler Mechanics (1952 reproduction) on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280123673884&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:MT:1

[James_Douglas]

If it is of any interest to you, there is n Overdrive manual for Chrysler Mechanics (1952 reproduction) on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280123673884&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:MT:1

Thank you for the thought. I have most every manual both Chrysler and BW put out on these units.

James

[James_Douglas]

Well,

After 2 days of rewiring to use modern relay's in place of the original style relays, guess what ?

When the car hits 27 MPH and the governor closes the circuit and the power flows to the solenoid (That would be the replacement that George sent) the fuse (30AMP) blows.

Absolutely no difference between the old relay and the modern ones.

The only possibility I can think of left are:

1. The replacement SOL George sent will "pop" out the shaft on a bench test, but under a real load is drawing too much current and blowing the fuse.

2. The Pawl that the solenoid pushes in is not moving and thus causing the solenoid to draw too much current and blowing the fuse. If this is the case then the unit has to come out of the car at the cost of 2 weeks of my time or a lot of money to pay a shop here in SF to do it.

What really is making me upset is my support from George, who sold me this unit. When I call him, the response I get is things like "well, I have sold 15 units in the last year and....". Or he says, "Well it worked for 3 weeks so it was nothing we did here....".

I spent $1800 on his stuff plus $200 on drive shafts and $100 on miscellaneous and 3 weeks work on my back and I have crap to show for it.

The thing worked for 3 weeks and then failed. This is going to get ugly as I am pissed off and tired of this do-do.

James

[Don Coatney]

James;

I tend to agree with George on his comment that if this system worked for 3 weeks it sort of proved that it works. So the question is what changed to make the system not work now? I just went back and read the original problem you posted. You mentioned that the overdrive failed but you did not say exactly what happened when it failed. Were you driving along in overdrive and it dropped out? Was the system attempting to shift into overdrive when it failed? Was the kick down switch in use when it failed? The answers to these questions may give a clue as to what happened. If it did not blow a fuse when the solenoid failed is it possible that the kick down switch developed an internal problem and back fed the solenoid with non fused power from the coil (assuming you are wired per the diagram below). Have you tried to eliminate the kick down switch per the instructions on this schematic? Have you disconnected all the wires in the system on both ends and used an ohm meter looking for a short to ground? If you are using the 3 way switch have you tried to eliminate it per the instructions on this schematic? George has sold a lot of these overdrives to folks over the past several years and you are the first customer that has had this problem to the best of my knowledge.