Question on FE-353 Master Cylinder

[lizmcl527]

Can anyone with an old Wagner/Lockheed parts book tell me if an FE-353 master is equivalent to Mopar's unobtanium 858889 ('37-'41 Plymouth/Plodge)?  I'm dealing with a fresh round of brake woes which keep coming back to master cylinder issues, and am at the point where I'm ready to look for a replacement for my sleeved/rebuilt (Hagen's) unit.

 

Much obliged for any info!

[desoto1939]

This is rich HArtung.  The 37-41 MC that you are refering to was also used in the Chrysler and also Desoto. I have the same one in my 39 Desoto. I will verify in my Wagner book that the FE353 is the correct model as the Mopar Number.

 

From my memory It should be the same unit.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

Edited March 25, 2014 by desoto1939

[lizmcl527]

Thanx -- number should be FE-853, not 353. (No replacements for weak eyes, alas.) It's a dead ringer for the original, in any case.

[desoto1939]

will recheck the new number that you sent me.  Send me you home email and i will try to copy the page out of the catalof for you.

 

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

what type of issues are you having with the reselved MC?

 

rich

[lizmcl527]

Pretty much the same problems everybody seems to have with this model -- pressure building up until the brakes lock. We've tried loosening up the piston rod, but it still acts like something's blocking the relief port. I took the car out for a spin a couple months ago when we had a warm day (I'm in Maine, where winter lasts nine months) and the pedal started to stiffen up and the brake light stuck on after about six miles -- and then when I happened to look under the car this past weekend, there was a puddle of brake fluid soaked into the garage floorboards under the right rear wheel that hadn't been there before, as though the pressure had blown out the wheel cylinder. (All the wheel cylinders were replaced about a year ago.)

 

The thing is, I drove the thing about 1300 miles last summer without major brake issues -- the pressure would build up noticeably, but not to the point of locking. But the last long drive I took, a thirty-five mile trip last November, the brake light stuck on and the pedal was extremely high and tight. I let it sit for a bit until the brake light went out, and then drove home without using the service brakes at all -- used the gears to slow down and the hand brake to stop, which was quite an adventure.

 

I don't do the brake work myself -- I don't have the tools or the experience, but I do have a good understanding of how the brakes work and what can go wrong, and the guy who does my servicing used to own a '40 Plymouth himself and knows the idiosyncracies of these brakes, but is a bit baffled as to why a clean rebuilt master should be having these problems.

 

Car is a '41 Canadian Dodge D-20 -- basically a Plymouth P-11 with a Chrysler-DeSoto type engine.

 

Home email is lizmcl527@gmail.com

Edited March 25, 2014 by lizmcl527

[Young Ed]

Does your MC look like this?

[lizmcl527]

It's similar, except the brake light switch doesn't mount on top. Mine has two mounting lugs on the bottom, like the pic below (apologies for crappy image, it's the only one I could find online.)

 

 

It was only used from 1937-40 on Chrysler, Dodge, and DeSoto, and 1937-41 on Plymouths and Plodges. And not even the Chinese knocker-offs have reproduced it.

[desoto1939]

It's similar, except the brake light switch doesn't mount on top. Mine has two mounting lugs on the bottom, like the pic below (apologies for crappy image, it's the only one I could find online.)

 

 

It was only used from 1937-40 on Chrysler, Dodge, and DeSoto, and 1937-41 on Plymouths and Plodges. And not even the Chinese knocker-offs have reproduced it.

I looked in the wagner brake catalog and the wagner number is E852   and you are showing the correct picture

 

rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[lizmcl527]

Much obliged, Rich -- thanx!!

[Jerry Roberts]

Have you seen the old posts on plugged ports in the master cylinders ? There are two ports in the bottom , one is so small  that a fat needle or very thin nail is used to unplug it . If that small port is plugged it would cause the problem that you describe . Another thing that would cause this problem is a rubber brake line coming apart in the inside . 

[Don Coatney]

Seems that a lot of folks are having an issue with this small port recently.

 

 

[lizmcl527]

We cleaned out the relief port early on, but the pressure build-up has been an issue since the day we installed the rebuilt master. All the rubber hoses were replaced then as well, with fresh USA-made hoses, not the cheap foreign stuff. I'm at the point now where I'm wondering if the MC rebuild itself has something wrong with it -- hole not drilled big enough? wrong size piston maybe?

 

It's probably going to be a good two months or so before I can get the car out again, between more snow coming today and potholes the size of bathtubs in my street, so I guess there's plenty of time to experiment.

[desoto1939]

We cleaned out the relief port early on, but the pressure build-up has been an issue since the day we installed the rebuilt master. All the rubber hoses were replaced then as well, with fresh USA-made hoses, not the cheap foreign stuff. I'm at the point now where I'm wondering if the MC rebuild itself has something wrong with it -- hole not drilled big enough? wrong size piston maybe?

 

It's probably going to be a good two months or so before I can get the car out again, between more snow coming today and potholes the size of bathtubs in my street, so I guess there's plenty of time to experiment.

You mentioned that the MC was rebuilt, Was it rebored and sleeved by a reputuable company or was this a new remanufactured MC that was sent out?

I would contact the rebuilder and explain what is happening. Did they use a brass or stainless steel insert. Also check the filler cap to make sure the hole in the cap is open to also let out pressure.  There should be a small hole on the side of the hex. Did you convert the brake fluid from Dot 3/4 to Dot5?  If you did then did you flush the entire system with denatured alcohol?   Did you also replace the rubber cups inside each wheel cylinder. They might be sticking. If the MC is not relieving pressure then bleed the line at the front of the MC to see if the pressure then reside back to normal.

Pull a front drum.  have some one sit in the car and push the brake pedalbut not allthe way to see if the shoes expand and then go back to their normal setting. Then this might indicate if the specific wheel is having the issue.  These are all just some thoughts on how to diagnosis the issue.  ANother gentleman in the club is also having a similar problem and has the same MC that you are using. the 37-41 Wagner MC. What about the spring to pulle back the brake pedal is that stretch out and now weak?

Keep us posted on what you find.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[lizmcl527]

The hole in the filler cap is an angle I haven't checked -- thanks for the suggestion, will have a look next chance I get.

 

Hagen's in Washington state did the rebuild on my original master a couple years ago, using stainless steel. Everything looked kosher when we put it in, and I've been fiddling along assuming that other issues in the system must be the reason for the string of problems I've been having. It's only after the issues started to get worse and the brakes started to drag that I started to revisit the rebuilt unit.

 

I'm going to have to deal with the leaking rear wheel cylinder anyway, so will look at everything else while that's being done. The wheel cylinders all came from Vintage Mopar Direct on eBay.

[lizmcl527]

It's fifty degrees today, so time to put on the overalls and fool around with the Plodge.

 

Filler cap vent port was open -- no problems there. Brakes were dragging bad when I backed it out of the garage, and pedal was very high and very tight. Brake light wasn't on.

 

I took the cover off the master and saw that fluid was down to about a quarter of an inch in the bottom of the reservoir, which makes sense given the size of the leak at the rear wheel. I poked the relief port with a sewing needle and after a bit of resistance managed to get thru whatever had caked up in it -- but the brake pressure didn't relieve. I cracked the bleeder on the leaky rear cylinder, got a small squirt, and the pressure immediately relieved. Topped off the fluid, put everything back together and took a quick drive to the grocery store, about a mile total, and didn't notice any fresh leakage when I got home. It still feels like pressure is building up a bit though.

 

Diagnosis -- bad brake cylinder compounded by crud in the lines? Or bad brake cylinder *caused* by crud in the lines?

[desoto1939]

Seems strange that the brake light is not on sin ce you have such a build up in  brake like pressure. And that the pedal was pushed and the fluid I would think would still be in a forward flow motion. and the brake light would be on. So the fluid is not having enough pressure to activate the brake light switch so some fluid is getting back past the switch.  Here isa suugestion.  Take the two loines off the back brakes. These connect to a brass fitting on the rear end take one off at a time see if you can blow air through the line then run a stiff wire through the brake line to see if there is any blockage.  Then do the other line.

 

Might also be corrosion in the wheel cylinders.

 

Rich Hartung

[lizmcl527]

Finally got enough warm weather to do some more experimenting on my brake issues. The rear metal brake line was pretty cruddy, so I replaced that, and the brake pressure buildup now doesn't seem to be as bad as it was -- I can drive twenty miles or so at normal speeds without the brake light coming on and the pedal getting too high to move, but there does still seem to be pressure building up in the lines.

 

The other brake lines were installed about eight years ago by the previous owner, and they still look good -- I had them double-checked by my regular mechanic, and he thought they were still "good as new," so for the moment I haven't replaced those. The hoses are only about two years old and don't show any evidence of issues.

 

I'm wondering now if there might be some kind of heat issue going on? The rear line has the rear axle between it and the exhaust pipe, and there seems to be a decent clearance between the front lines and the engine -- but is it possible that it's picking up enough heat somewhere to expand the fluid and thus build up the pressure? When I start it cold, the pedal is fine, and when I drive short hops it's fine, but when it gets warm, the tightening in the pedal starts. If I leave it to sit and cool off for a while, the pressure goes back to normal.

 

Should there be some kind of heat shielding around the front brake lines/master cylinder area to keep them cool? There isn't any evidence of any now.

[TodFitch]

. . . I'm wondering now if there might be some kind of heat issue going on? The rear line has the rear axle between it and the exhaust pipe, and there seems to be a decent clearance between the front lines and the engine -- but is it possible that it's picking up enough heat somewhere to expand the fluid and thus build up the pressure? When I start it cold, the pedal is fine, and when I drive short hops it's fine, but when it gets warm, the tightening in the pedal starts. If I leave it to sit and cool off for a while, the pressure goes back to normal. . . 

 

Do you have a dragging brake shoe? Any one wheel/drum hotter than the rest?

[lizmcl527]

The right rear shoes were dragging before replacement of the brake line, but seem fine now -- I just took a 13-mile drive at 40mph, and the drums are all comfortable to the touch. The right front drum is a bit warmer than the others, but that's usually the case, I'd think, given that the manifold is throwing off heat on that side.

 

There's still more pressure at the pedal than there was when I started, though -- not enough to lock anything up, but it's accumulating. It still feels like if I drive far enough, I'll start locking.