Overdrive vs. transmission lubricant

[Uncle-Pekka]

Dodge shop manual calls SAE 90 oil for the transmission lubricant.

B&W R10 manual recommends SAE40 straight motor oil for the OD unit lubricant.

In the Mopar 3-speed+R10 unit, do the lubricants mix - aren't the OD and 3-speed sealed in between?

 

R10 manual allows heavy oil for extreme heat, but here in north those conditions do not exist.

Does a heavy oil hinder the OD from working as quick as required?

 

Would like to learn what do you use in your units?

Experiences using different weight oils?

[Jim Yergin]

The O/D unit and the rest of the transmission are not sealed from each other. They share the same oil. I use straight 40 weight oil in mine.

Jim Yergin

[_shel_ny]

Oddly enough the oil spec for the 3 speed transmission used in the D24 changed when the same transmission was used in later models. D29, D30, D33. D34, D41, D42.  Went from the 90 wt to SAE 10-W.  Seems whatever the R10 is happy with would be the way to go

[Uncle-Pekka]

The O/D unit and the rest of the transmission are not sealed from each other. They share the same oil. I use straight 40 weight oil in mine.

Jim Yergin

 

 

Jim,

That was exactly my point, I just was not 100% sure that they are the same can.

Thus I was puzzled when Chrysler recommends 90 weight for the 3-speed but B&W recommends 40 weight for the R10.

 

Have you seen any problems with the 40 weight on the 3-speed unit?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka

[Uncle-Pekka]

Funny, I found only Jim's reply, started to write my continued question, went away to get a cup of coffee...

When I hit return I found Shel's reply, which kind of already answered my second question.

 

 

Oddly enough the oil spec for the 3 speed transmission used in the D24 changed when the same transmission was used in later models. D29, D30, D33. D34, D41, D42.  Went from the 90 wt to SAE 10-W.  Seems whatever the R10 is happy with would be the way to go 

In case the mopar 3-speed can live with 90W and 10W (!?!), it obviously will do just fine with 40W as well. Just as Shel said.

 

Well, these are great news to me.

I'd get me a big barrell of straight mineral 40 weight motor oil and use it on the engine, 3-speed and OD! - simple and clean!

I only drive in summertime, thus will not need multigrade in the engine either.

 

That's another trick I learned by an old timer here in Finland:
He remarked, that the 30's-50's flat head engines have not proper lubrication for the top of the engine, most important not for the valve guides.

Back then, they relied on motor oil vaporization on working temperatures.

Now, the modern oils are too good, on his opinion, there's not vaporization in the same extent as the oils tolerate much higher temperatures.

Paradoxical, good modern oils are bad for the old engines. He strongly recommended sticking in basic single grade mineral oil.

 

Yet more, Jim Richardson of Hemmings wrote in the H's Classic Car, that old engines would need zinc-sulfur compound in the motor oil to keep the contact surfaces from excessive wear.

He wrote he ran one chevy 235 cam shaft lobes flat with modern oil without any zinc... (HCC issue 74, Nov.2010)

Thus he recommends ZZDP additive in mineral oil. (Well, now I went off-topic in my own thread...)

Edited March 22, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka

[Plymouthy Adams]

I believe if you do some checking about and reading on lube properties that the FGL- 80 has the viscosity of a 40 weight oil....as the R10 was originally outfitted in the Plymouth in  mid 1952 and according to the manual for the same..the recommended fluid for both the tranny and OD unit is FGL-80..(section 20 of shop manual) this today is known as GL1 and is available but often only at a Napa or tractor supply house, normal automotive parts house do not distinct and carry mainly hypoid GL4 or GL5 and these had additives not good for your tranny..

 

NOW for a product that is totally available at parts houses...Penzoil is just one brand that makes a product known as Synchromesh Manual transmission fluid...this is specially developed for unit like the NV3500 5 speeds and is formulated for Syncromesh trannies and is totally compatible with yellow and copper metals...

 

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Synchromesh-Manual-Trans-Fluid.pdf

 

this lube is about 9.00 a quart if memory serves me correct..the GL1-90 was about 15.00 a gallon from Napa..I keep both of these oils on hand..

Edited March 22, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Uncle-Pekka]

Tim,

Would not know about FGL-80, my D24 books only state the 3-speed should eat 2 3/4 pints SAE90 cst oil... and R10 book calls for SAE40 oil.

However, thanks for your advice, I think I most probably have GL1 stuff with me already.

Penzoil is not common brand here, only sold by US cars specialized parts dealer at relatively high price. No problem finding corresponding synchromesh trans oil, though.

[DCurrent]

I think everyone is familiar with George Ash. He is rebuilding a OD trans for me right now and I'm to pick it up next week. It's the common one everyone is looking for to install in their 46-48 Plymouth to bolt up. Funny thing though I can't remember if it's a r7 or r10,anyway he said 80 and 90 wt. oil was way to heavy. Why? I don't know, but I'll be finding out next week. I do remember him suggesting a diesel oil, and  multi wt oil like 20 40, but don't hold me to the multi wt. part.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have seen the differences in the Dodge book as compared to the Plymouth and other car companies using the R10 unit....they do share lubricant...open the link and read, the article will explains a lot...covers subject of viscosity to indicate the actual number is not the actual viscosity....also explains all GL requirements for standards that is the API

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil

 

another FGL product that may be of interest to you....

 

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/manual/manual-synchromesh-transmission-fluid-5w-30/?CategoryID=5&page=%2fstorefront%2fmtf.aspx

Edited March 22, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Plymouthy Adams]

As an added note I remembered that my Studebaker here has the BW overdrive unit and it does caution you to use FGL 80-90 and be sure that it CONTAINS NO EP additives...(lead, phosphorous and sulfur)...it also went one step further in saying that if the mineral oil of that grade was not availaible:

 

use SAE 40 engine oil...NOT MULTI-GRADE

Edited March 22, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Don Coatney]

As George Asche is an Amsol dealer I am surprised he did not recommend one of there products. He used to supply a couple quarts of his recommended Amsol oil with the transmissions he re-builds.

[Uncle-Pekka]

As an added note I remembered that my Studebaker here has the BW overdrive unit and it does caution you to use FGL 80-90 and be sure that it CONTAINS NO EP additives...(lead, phosphorous and sulfur)...it also went one step further in saying that if the mineral oil of that grade was not availaible:

 

use SAE 40 engine oil...NOT MULTI-GRADE

Yes, also in the generic Warner R10 manual told the same; SAE 40 straight engine oil would be the best recommendation, absolutely no EP additives because they provide risk to block the funnels to pinion bearings...

[denmopar]

...and to add some more to the mix, George Asche told me to use Amsoil 15W-40 Diesel oil in either my run-o'-the-mill 3 speed or the O/D/ trans R-10.

I have NAPA GL-1 in there now.

...BTW- I checked the Amsoil site and they offer more than one Diesel-spec 15W-40 oil.....Hmmm??

I'm going to change to the 15W-40 oil per George and see if it helps reduce/eliminate the remaining little 'grunt' only up-shifting

into 2nd at speeds above 15-20 mph.(Stop ring / 2nd gear taper clearance OK.)

Den-

[meadowbrook]

Ditto on the 15w40 Amsoil, Asche also recommended I use that on the R7 he built for me. Have used it for around 4 years and no issues. Quiet too.

[Tim Keith]

I believe if you do some checking about and reading on lube properties that the FGL- 80 has the viscosity of a 40 weight oil....as the R10 was originally outfitted in the Plymouth in  mid 1952 and according to the manual for the same..the recommended fluid for both the tranny and OD unit is FGL-80..(section 20 of shop manual) this today is known as GL1 and is available but often only at a Napa or tractor supply house, normal automotive parts house do not distinct and carry mainly hypoid GL4 or GL5 and these had additives not good for your tranny..

 

NOW for a product that is totally available at parts houses...Penzoil is just one brand that makes a product known as Synchromesh Manual transmission fluid...this is specially developed for unit like the NV3500 5 speeds and is formulated for Syncromesh trannies and is totally compatible with yellow and copper metals...

 

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Synchromesh-Manual-Trans-Fluid.pdf

 

this lube is about 9.00 a quart if memory serves me correct..the GL1-90 was about 15.00 a gallon from Napa..I keep both of these oils on hand..

 

Some GL5 gear oil contains additives that prevent corrosion of brass from the sulfur compounds that are in the additives but many vendors are reluctant to state on the label that their gear oil is safe for yellow metals.  Some of the synthetic gear oils will state that its okay for brass.  GL4 has less of the sulfur based additives than GL5.   I think GL4 and GL5 are performance specifications that may not address the specific chemical derivatives that are used as additives.   I think GL5 probably does contain corrosion inhibitors but you might have to speak with a company representative to verify that.  GL4 is a spec from way back, I think 1943.  This is a topic that leads many to make special orders of gear oil.

[Plymouthy Adams]

In the very article I listed a link to above does indeed list the very rating behind the GL lubes per their number rating...1 and 2 are safe to all metals...3 contains a very low amount of additives, 4 has a bit more and of course 5 is the one you want to must be aware of it contents.  Yes I agree there are marketed products out there that have EP additives that are not the familiar old school variety and are supposed to be compliant for use with the yellow metals..but as you stated..who is taking the lead on the markings?  I will only advise to be sure that you personally know what EP additives are user friendly with the yellow metals and which are not only then can you make an informed choice to the product to use.  Again buyer beware....user be informed.....end use and any subsequent damage will fall on the user.

[Young Ed]

I think I've said this before both Dad and I are running modern 80w90 gear oil with a gl4/5 rating. The bottle clearly states safe for manual transmissions.

[Plymouthy Adams]

read the label..though they say it is safe..the API did us wrong in cancelling the grades GL1-3 in 1995 and the industry is taking advantage of that..most still contain same level sulfur and phosphorous and a tad of lead...again..there is a suitable EP that is safe..I do not recall its name..

Edited March 27, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Niel Hoback]

  Last summer I bought a gallon of Warren GL1 gear oil in Fredericksburg VA. at a non-chain auto supply.  There is a website listing their products.

http://warrenoil.com/