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1949 Plymouth Serial Number Question


dlrides

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In '49, did Plymouth use the letter " I " in Vehicle Numbers (door post) ?

 

 

 

 

Background:

 

NC DMV says they no longer like to accept the letter " I " in serial numbers because it does not "conform" to their system ! I have to prove it was used, or they will assign a new number.

 

Crazy I know, but NC DMV are the automotive gestapo now.

Edited by dlrides
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I am thinking and per my example here, only on the engine number use the capital letter "i" (roman numeral) for the numeral 1..on the body tag the numeral one is as actual numeral 1

 

so if your car is registered by the engine number, then the captical letter "i" is correct but if by body number I would say no....if it is the case of the engine number and they do not like that, go with the body number on the door jamb for your identification number...that is also correct for title..it varied state to state..

 

this I read long ago but I cannot recall the actual documentation for the article..

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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Here's an example from my files where you can see the "I" being used as a Body ID number ..... will this type of information satisfy their need?     The Body ID number on the plate appears to be I236I883 but is actually 12361883.   You can check the list in the other link to confirm that's within the appropriate series (P17 or P18) or in the case of this example ... P20 out of Detriot.   

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/49plymouthclubcoupe/1949plymouth475_zpsbf6ae3c8.jpg

Edited by Johnny S
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I am thinking and per my example here, only on the engine number use the capital letter "i" (roman numeral) for the numeral 1..on the body tag the numeral one is as actual numeral 1

 

so if your car is registered by the engine number, then the captical letter "i" is correct but if by body number I would say no....if it is the case of the engine number and they do not like that, go with the body number on the door jamb for your identification number...that is also correct for title..it varied state to state..

 

this I read long ago but I cannot recall the actual documentation for the article..

 

Tim its been a while since I've had reason to look at it but I believe my serial # on the p15 has an I in it in place of a 1.

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Here's a link to a data sheet that will help .... the "I" was used on the plate in place of a "1" as I see it.    And like Young Ed reports above. 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/49plymouthclubcoupe/1949_Plymouth_vin_numbers_locations_zpse43e7087.jpg

 

John

Edited by Johnny S
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That use of the "I" in place of the "1" has caused a lot of title confusion .... it should be recorded as a "1" ... not as an "I" ..... I had similar issues when I had a local law enforcement officer review the VIN on one of my cars being re-titled in Colorado.    

Edited by Johnny S
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong (my car, a P15, is still stored at a distance from where I'm living now, so can't go look), but I was thinking that there is a tag with a number stamped in, on the fire wall.  That would be the body number.  Then there is the engine number, which is also stamped on the frame, over the left rear wheel (I do not recall having ever noticed this stamping on my car - this is from others' comments on this forum).  And then the Serial Number plate is located on the A door post.  I would think that the SN is the closest thing to a VIN.  If there is not a number stamped into what I'm calling the body tag, then I assume that you are referring to what I have called the Serial Number tag.

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Definitely the serial number on the door post tag is a number, no letters for the period 1930 through 1957. So anything that looks like an "I" is actually a "1". I think that is true for the numerical part of the engine number, at least for Plymouth as there was no PI model (they went from PG to PJ skipping PH and PI before they switched to P1, P2, etc.).

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Eneto-55, on 12 Mar 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (my car, a P15, is still stored at a distance from where I'm living now, so can't go look), but I was thinking that there is a tag with a number stamped in, on the fire wall.  That would be the body number.  Then there is the engine number, which is also stamped on the frame, over the left rear wheel (I do not recall having ever noticed this stamping on my car - this is from others' comments on this forum).  And then the Serial Number plate is located on the A door post.  I would think that the SN is the closest thing to a VIN.  If there is not a number stamped into what I'm calling the body tag, then I assume that you are referring to what I have called the Serial Number tag.

the number tag on the firewall is a Briggs body identifier...Chrysler assigned a number to the car when completed as an assembly on the A-post..this is the factory serial number from ma Mopar...

 

Ed...my P15 coupe that is readily at hand to look at has actual numbers on the body tag on the A-post and the letter I (roman numeral one) on the engine block denoting the numeral 1

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Thanks for the replies and information.

 

To clarify, I am speaking of the "Vehicle Number" on the door post. This will have to be used, as it was on the TN title that was submitted to DMV for a NC title.

 

My number is similar to the one posted by Johnny S above, it has the capital " I " in the number, but what I am gathering is this is actually a roman numeral "1". Correct ?

 

I have been trying to post a photo, but cant.

 

NC DMV procedure to assign a new VIN is complicated and costly, so I would like to avoid it if possible. Besides, there is nothing wrong with the car, previous title, etc., except "it doesn't conform to our system".

 

The process is to acquire 2 estimates of the value by registered NC dealers. Then purchase bonding insurance for 1.5 times the value of the highest estimate. There are 2 state forms to be submitted, 1 by the bonding agent, 1 by myself. Then take all this information to the DMV inspector for review. This all seems absurd just to get a title for a vehicle that is perfectly legal and traceable !!!!!

 

 



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Yes, what you are seeing is the Roman numeral character for the number one (1) in the serial number.   In the example I posted there are two places where that Roman numeral is used.    But, if you look at my second attachment it shows the Vehicle Number assignments by model year and location .... NONE of them have a Roman Numeral in them ..... but you can decode the Vehicle Number on a P15, P17, P18, P19 or P20 by using that chart to determine place of origin. 

 

Good luck ....

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Yes, what you are seeing is the Roman numeral character for the number one (1) in the serial number.   In the example I posted there are two places where that Roman numeral is used.    But, if you look at my second attachment it shows the Vehicle Number assignments by model year and location .... NONE of them have a Roman Numeral in them ..... but you can decode the Vehicle Number on a P15, P17, P18, P19 or P20 by using that chart to determine place of origin. 

 

Good luck ....

I might have made some typos in the data files it uses, but my serial number and VIN tool at http://www.ply33.com/Misc/vin will do Chrysler/Mopar built cars from 1924 through 1974 (Dodge starting in 1928 when Chrysler acquired them).

 

Give it the string and it will determine if it is a FedCo number (prior to 1930), a numeric serial number (1930 into the 50s), proto-VIN (late 50s) or early VIN (1960s through1974). Based on what it sees, it either looks it up in a bunch of tables or for the VIN, decodes it.

 

The Dodge truck serial numbers are a pain (lots of small runs of numbers) and Dodge prior to 1928 conflicts with the later Chrysler numbering so I don't do them. Phil Street has a great truck serial number tool at http://www.t137.com/registry/help/decode.php if you need to look up truck numbers.

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I thank you all for the information, the link to the decode site might have solved the issue. I called the inspector and discussed, then sent an email with the link and some photos of other '49 "Vehicle Number" tags with the roman numeral "1". She seemed satisfied, but will have to get approval.

Edited by dlrides
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Yes, Chrysler Corporation for years (1930s through to the 1950s or early 1960s) used the letter I to represent the number 1 in both the serial number and the engine number.  Studebaker did the same.  Not sure of the reasons for it, but probably having problems with the number 1 also looking like the lower case L (I), back in the day of typewriters..

 

In Chryslers FEDCO system the letter I was never used.  Looked too much like the number 1.   In Chryslers alpha model codes (PA, CA, SA, CA, etc.) the letter I was used - I, DI and CI.   The Imperial never used the letter I for its car line letter, instead using the letter Y (or, in French, i-grec or Greek I), again prevent getting it confused with the number 1.

 

If you can change the font to Times New Roman i this message you would see the small case letter L appear to look like the number 1, which is what it was like on typewriters back in those days..

Edited by B-Watson
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I am surprised that you are having such difficulty in getting a NC title. Three years ago I moved to Beaufort county in eastern NC and had no problem getting a NC title. My car had been titled in Massachusetts. I had to turn in my Mass title then have the car inspected by the local NCDoT officer. He took pictures of the serial number on the door jam, checked a reference book to make sure that the car was indeed a 1948 model, and that was it.

Have you had the serial number inspected by an officer? Perhaps he can decide what to do with the number on the old title.

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I am surprised that you are having such difficulty in getting a NC title. Three years ago I moved to Beaufort county in eastern NC and had no problem getting a NC title. My car had been titled in Massachusetts. I had to turn in my Mass title then have the car inspected by the local NCDoT officer. He took pictures of the serial number on the door jam, checked a reference book to make sure that the car was indeed a 1948 model, and that was it.

Have you had the serial number inspected by an officer? Perhaps he can decide what to do with the number on the old title.

 

 I haven't posted about this in a few days, because I've been so upset over the turn it has taken. You are correct in the process, I've been through it several times with old motorcycles with no issues.

 

The inspector that is on my case is very young, and I have no idea how much experience she has. I have sent her six photos of 1949 "Vehicle Number" plates, which she rejects, because, and I quote from her last email,

 

 "A public VIN on all Chrysler products shall appear on a stainless steel plate, black on color, with the words Chrysler Corporation and the distinctive Chrysler emblem imprinted thereon."

 

I talked to lawyer in my lodge, and my plan is to go through the steps they have requested (posted above) to get the title. When the build report arrives from Chrysler Historical Services, file a formal complaint at the NC DMV, which will trigger an investigation. Document all costs, mileage, time, etc., print all emails, gather photos, copy of the build report, and present them with the whole package along with an invoice for reimbursement !

 

I know this sounds absurd, but I have no choice at this point.

Edited by dlrides
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One article you should get your hands on is the story of the development and adoption of the Chrysler pentastar, the Chrysler emblem mentioned by the DMV employee..  As it was not adopted until the .spring of 1963, you could ask the DMV how it could appear on a VIN plate for a car built 14 years before 1963. 

 

Reminds me of a person a few years back who tried to register his 196X Mopar and was rejected.  The DMV employee stated the Mopar failed as the VIN had only ten digits, and cars should have a VIN of 17 digits.

 

Always amazes me how so many young people believe that what we have today have existed since before their time.  They just cannot accept the fact that things do change over time, and that fact is especially true with cars and trucks.  But, regardless, ignorance is no excuse.

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One article you should get your hands on is the story of the development and adoption of the Chrysler pentastar, the Chrysler emblem mentioned by the DMV employee..  As it was not adopted until the .spring of 1963, you could ask the DMV how it could appear on a VIN plate for a car built 14 years before 1963. 

 

Reminds me of a person a few years back who tried to register his 196X Mopar and was rejected.  The DMV employee stated the Mopar failed as the VIN had only ten digits, and cars should have a VIN of 17 digits.

 

Always amazes me how so many young people believe that what we have today have existed since before their time.  They just cannot accept the fact that things do change over time, and that fact is especially true with cars and trucks.  But, regardless, ignorance is no excuse.

well said

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  • 2 weeks later...

Three years ago I went through this in  Fayetteville NC. Had a VA title with sn tag on door frame that matched. Inspector came out 3 or 4 times determined that the sn on engine and frame were the ones that should be used. Fortunately no engine change so they matched. Problem being that the NC data base does not acknowledge the few 1949 first series P-15's. Ended up using the engine/frame number. What happens if I change engines ?  Due to having a title I paid nothing extra. Just normal title/registration fees.

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