Clutch Question

[DCurrent]

I have a spare 1950 motor and trans (p20 I think) that is still assembled. My question is are the guts in the bellhousing (clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, throwout bearing) the same as my 48 p15? I assume it is but I want to be sure. I plan to take the guts out and have them rebuilt. That way when I install an OD trans sometime this spring I'll have everything ready to go without the car being down for some time waiting for the parts to be rebuilt. That's my plan anyway. It may not work out that way, but I'm going to give it a shot. 

[DCurrent]

Is this a stupid Question?

[Don Coatney]

Not stupid. I was hoping someone who knows for sure would answer. I believe the bell housing guts are the same but someone with a Hollanders should be able to give a better answer than my guess.

 

I do suggest you send the pressure plate and disc to Tennessee Clutch but I think you already know that. You should be able to find a good local machine shop to re-surface your flywheel. Make sure they grind the surface as a lathe cutting tool will chatter when it hits the hard spots and not give a true finish.

 

Reminds me of an experience I had in the late 60's. I had a 65 Mustang convertible with a 3 speed 289 stick shift. I was living in Ohio but working in Chicago. I replaced the clutch one weekend in Ohio because it was chattering really bad. Buttoned everything up Sunday morning and drove about 200 miles to Chicago. The clutch was chattering worse the whole trip. After work Monday I pulled it into the Company shop and ripped the clutch and flywheel out. Burrowed a company truck and hauled the flywheel to a machine shop. Picked it up Tuesday AM early and re-installed everything in a couple of hours. That fixed the problem. 

[Young Ed]

Yes they will work but they aren't necessarily the same. There are 2 styles. Borg and beck I think is the name of one and then there is another. One of them isn't very good. Hopefully someone can chime in with the names of each and which is better.

[DCurrent]

Perhaps I will just pull the trans off and disassemble the bellhousing on the spare motor anyway. Then I can take pictures and I'll have measurements to compare with those who have been down this road before.

[knuckleharley]

Is this a stupid Question?

No.

[Don Coatney]

Perhaps I will just pull the trans off and disassemble the bellhousing on the spare motor anyway. Then I can take pictures and I'll have measurements to compare with those who have been down this road before.

Good idea.

[Don Coatney]

This might help if you don't already have a copy. P-15

 

[DCurrent]

Thanks but I already have that Don. I removed the trans and bellhousing from the spare motor I have. Also I disassembled the clutch guts. I must say that this is the first manual trans that I have had apart. I thought I should mention this. It's not that I thought it would be difficult but I was in a little bit of uncharted territory. I have had several automatics in and out before. The manual trans was not really any different. I am very surprised at the thin plate the clutch fiber discs are riveted too!! It seems very thin. I also noticed that it has the word relined on the disc. So it has likely been done before. Also the

 

So I can now see different numbers different places on the clutch parts. Can anyone tell me where to look to see if this clutch will cross with 48 Plymouth?

 

Edited February 24, 2014 by DCurrent

[Don Coatney]

It looks like the one in my car.

 

[DJ194950]

Remove the pressure plate from the flywheel.

Measure across the dia. of the clutch disc. 9-1/4" std. and 10" and 11" -spec. equip. across were used. for most smaller Mopars of this age. 10 Splines on the disc to trans imput shaft. Only way to know 100% is to compare this with your cars current parts.

Most trucks and larger cars were 11" dia. with the 10 spline count. Inside shaft dia. of the plate hole are mostly bigger also per my old memory.

 

The thickness betwween the rivet heads and the disc surface might be somewhere between an 1/8" (new) or a 1/16" (still usable).

Not much to the eye.

Maybe someone with a newly relined plate can give an accurate measurement.

 

Best,

 

Doug

[Don Coatney]

My P-15 disc

 

[DCurrent]

Don,

My disc is 10" in diameter. looking at your flywheel, it appears as if there are other threaded holes just about a half inch farther out between the bolts mounting your clutch housing to your flywheel. I didn't pay much attention to my flywheel to see if there were another set of holes gone unused. Looking at your flywheel also leads me to believe the one I have has enough meat to resurface it. About 1/2" from the ring gear your flat surface starts whereas mine has the same step up as yours and another 1/2" from there starts another step of about 1/16" high. My guess is your 1/16" is ground down revealing a flat surface starting just past your ring gear. 

[DCurrent]

I have been discussing what I'm doing with some mechanics I know. The general consensus is if I use the complete clutch with the flywheel from the spare motor that I have it shouldn't make a difference if it is a larger clutch or the same size. It would only be a problem if the flywheel used was a different diameter. It of course wouldn't match up to the starter, but that shouldn't be a problem. Mopar didn't use different bell housings from 48 - 50 did they? If the bell housing is the same then the starter has got to be in the same position to match up with the flywheel, right? So the flywheel diameter should be the same from the 1950 donor motor as the 1948 Plymouth motor. Also, The OD trans that I'm using is from a 50's driveline, so I'd think the 50's clutch and flywheel would be a correct match!

 

Anyone have anything to add to my thinking or have a problem with my theory?

[Young Ed]

I think you'll be good to go. I put the 52 OD into my 48 without changing anything else in the driveline. This stuff is all quite interchangeable. Even my truck has car parts mixed in.

[DCurrent]

I have been doing some reading and research on my OD project. Learned quite a bit, but still can't find answers to some of my questions.  

 

1. I am looking for the minimum thickness of the flywheel measurement. I might need this incase I'm asked when I have it ground for flatness.

2. The OD requires a relay. I have found a source for the relay at about $125 (exact repro). I don't really need an exact repro, just something that will work I think. I need 12v relay, but what is the amps? I have several relays, but I'm not sure what will be required for this tranny.

3. I have just noticed that I'm missing the overcenter spring along with the special bent wire. Does this spring aid in pressing the clutch down enough for me to look for one and install it? I did think the clutch was a little on the stiff side, but I just thought this was normal for an old car.  

[Dodgeb4ya]

1950 Bell housings are different from the P15's. Clutch torque shaft pivot plate bolt holes are different. I think vents are different too.

[DCurrent]

I won't be using the 1950 bell housing, but only the clutch pressure plate and components, along with the disc, and flywheel. The starter on the bellhousing appears as if it is in the same location on both models, so I can assume the flywheels are the same. 

[Lumpy]

Sheeesh! Even Don's clutch and flywheel are works of art!

 

ken.

[Don Coatney]

I would think that the machine shop that does the flywheel grinding would know if the amount of material removed would compromise the flywheel. Check with them first.

 

The buck and a quarter relay cost seems high to me. What is the source? Did you try George Asche? There are others here on this forum who are using 12 volt relays and hopefully they will chime in.

 

Were it me I would find and install an over center spring. Should not be too hard to find as lots of engine swaps are done on these cars. My guess is a forum member has one sitting around. Search the classifieds on this webpage.

[DCurrent]

I would think that the machine shop that does the flywheel grinding would know if the amount of material removed would compromise the flywheel. Check with them first.

 

The buck and a quarter relay cost seems high to me. What is the source? Did you try George Asche? There are others here on this forum who are using 12 volt relays and hopefully they will chime in.

 

Were it me I would find and install an over center spring. Should not be too hard to find as lots of engine swaps are done on these cars. My guess is a forum member has one sitting around. Search the classifieds on this webpage.

The relay can be found here! http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/parts/parts_counter_3.html

I agree it sounds like too much and I'm not buying it. Looking for a cheaper alternative, but I gotta get my facts straight first. George has one included in his wire harness for $150, but I'm not sure if his harness will do me any good since my harness is homemade anyway. I'm just trying to find out if this relay is any different than the next. I have a NOS headlight relay from I think the 50s or 60s, and I believe it will work, but still doing homework.

 

I am going to look for the overcenter spring and assisting wire. I just looked at the classifieds and no lead, might just make a wanted ad.

[DCurrent]

Well I took a peak underneath the Plymouth again. I can tell this is just going to be one of those domino effect projects. My plan was just to install a OD transmission. Then I got to thinking I should rebuild the clutch and I wouldn't have to worry about that for a long time. Yesterday, I was just kinda snooping around under the car while taking notice of the underside. You know, looking for things that'll need fixing in time or attention soon. I already found that the overcenter spring is missing. Then the clutch cover was easy enough to remove, so I did. O BOY! Oil all over the place. That's why my clutch seems to be somewhat chattery when engaging it I suppose. I thought maybe the disc was just near the end of it's life. Now I'm replacing the real main seal (if I can) and pan gasket. Then I'll probably find something else that'll need fixing. I just have a feeling this might be a big can of worms. I hate doing things half way if I know what needs to be done.

[Don Coatney]

You have discovered that the line in the sand frequently gets moved in the wave of progress. Is the oil coming from the engine or the transmission? A gasket is required between the transmission and the bell housing. Frequently this gasket never gets installed because nobody knows about it nor thinks it is important. Does the oil smell fishy? If so it is coming from the transmission. Oil from the engine will hit the engine side of the flywheel and it takes a while for it to migrate to the clutch side.

 

If and when you replace the pan gasket post again as there are a couple of tricks I can share with you.

[DCurrent]

I'd say it's the engine seal, but hard to say for sure until the trans and clutch is apart. The oil looks dirty and is on the engine side of the flywheel.

[Young Ed]

In Dads 50 he ran a relay that was designed to be part of automotive security systems. His was even a 12v relay that worked on 6v. Also try searching the forum. Someone ( I think Jim Yergin) posted a method of rebuilding the original relays. Even without an original one maybe that will lead to something useful.